HEMI Start-Up Tick

[pantygnome]

I'm using a 0w-40 with ZERO moly. What is this fascination with moly? It's not the only AW/FM out there nor has it been in any way proven to have ANY impact on noise in this engine.

Most HEMI engines that tick have leaking exhaust manifolds, that was the case for EVERY SINGLE ONE of our trucks at work. ALL of them that made noise. That's not to be confused to a start-up rattle or quick clatter that goes away.

I think mostly because RedLine has quieted ticking engines (the ticks not being exhaust manifold related), and the biggest thing that stands out in RedLine vs others it the amount of moly and the "weight" of the oil. Im sure there are other differences, but without getting proprietary secrets, the only thing to go on is a UOA or VOA.

FWIW my experience with it echoed others....definitely the quietest my Hemi has run. I know PUP is supposed to have a good moly level, granted its the tri-nuke stuff so its "lower" on paper, but for some reason PUP was not nearly as quiet. Both were 5W-30 but RL is a much heavier 30.

Its weird but its almost like the Hemi responds better to organic moly than the new stuff. Maybe just a big coincidence but my experience plays out the same (PYB was quiet as well, with its ~187ppm of moly...numbers like that usually indicate organic)

 

[OVERKILL]

I think mostly because RedLine has quieted ticking engines (the ticks not being exhaust manifold related), and the biggest thing that stands out in RedLine vs others it the amount of moly and the "weight" of the oil. Im sure there are other differences, but without getting proprietary secrets, the only thing to go on is a UOA or VOA.

FWIW my experience with it echoed others....definitely the quietest my Hemi has run. I know PUP is supposed to have a good moly level, granted its the tri-nuke stuff so its "lower" on paper, but for some reason PUP was not nearly as quiet. Both were 5W-30 but RL is a much heavier 30.

Its weird but its almost like the Hemi responds better to organic moly than the new stuff. Maybe just a big coincidence but my experience plays out the same (PYB was quiet as well, with its ~187ppm of moly...numbers like that usually indicate organic)

I remember the burla threads on here and I recall that it was the 5w-30 Redline that was quieter on engines that were making noise, the 5w-20, 0w-20 and 0w-30 didn't have the same impact and they are all thinner oils but have the same amount of moly.

I also recall folks dumping in various moly booster products that had zero impact on the noise.

That's why I maintain that there's no evidence that moly is the panacea here, it seems this is a flawed inference based on the properties of a specific product while ignoring the fact that viscosity-wise, the product is far closer to a 5w-40 than it is the spec 5w-20.

My 6.4's have all sounded the same whether it was the SRT 0w-40 (high moly), Castrol 0w-40 (no moly), Mobil 1 0w-40 (moderate amounts of moly) or Ravenol 0w-40 (my current default with no moly).

It shouldn't be surprising that a significantly heavier oil results in the engine being quieter. Does it aide in the engine lasting longer though? I doubt it. Does it prevent lifter failure? No, that's been pretty conclusively determined to be a materials issue with the lifters that affects a small overall percentage of engines, just like GM's AFM lifter failures.

 

[OilReport99]

I remember the burla threads on here and I recall that it was the 5w-30 Redline that was quieter on engines that were making noise, the 5w-20, 0w-20 and 0w-30 didn't have the same impact and they are all thinner oils but have the same amount of moly.

I also recall folks dumping in various moly booster products that had zero impact on the noise.

That's why I maintain that there's no evidence that moly is the panacea here, it seems this is a flawed inference based on the properties of a specific product while ignoring the fact that viscosity-wise, the product is far closer to a 5w-40 than it is the spec 5w-20.

My 6.4's have all sounded the same whether it was the SRT 0w-40 (high moly), Castrol 0w-40 (no moly), Mobil 1 0w-40 (moderate amounts of moly) or Ravenol 0w-40 (my current default with no moly).

It shouldn't be surprising that a significantly heavier oil results in the engine being quieter. Does it aide in the engine lasting longer though? I doubt it. Does it prevent lifter failure? No, that's been pretty conclusively determined to be a materials issue with the lifters that affects a small overall percentage of engines, just like GM's AFM lifter failures.

My Hemi doesn’t have any tick, just that early morning clatter that goes away after a few seconds. Yes, with 30 grade oil is less noticeable - by a nose - but the Moly content has nothing to do with it. I’ve tried high moly such as Redline and low moly as well. No audible difference whatsoever as common sense dictates. Poor metallurgy is not “fixed” with oil, as some believe on that Ram forum. And a forum poll among users is not sound technical data as some claim it is over there.

 

[Blinker]

My buddy has a 2020 Ram Limited with the 5.7 etorque. I’ve witnessed it make a start up clatter/tapping sound several times. It sounds very similar to a lifter that has bled down after shutdown. It happened on cold starts and warm starts.

 

[clinebarger]

That's exactly what I hear with these.....The lifters on the nose of the cam bleed down & have to pump back up.....Which is normal, But the way these feed the lifters is a bit unconventional like I stated earlier. In fact I can't think of any other engine that feeds/oils the HLA & Lifter Body from 2 different circuits.

On MDS engines....The Lifter Body is fed with reduced pressure in V8 mode & full pressure in V4 mode, But I don't understand how that would effect HLA bleed down & prime/pump up times as they are 2 separate circuits.

Overkill stated his Non-MDS 6.4L doesn't doesn't tick, But his 5.7L MDS engine does. I've experienced similar with the 6.4L in 2500's compared to 5.7L's in 1500's & SUV's......But I don't own one.....I just work on them

 

[moparfreak13]

I have a couple higher mileage Hemi's, older ones without VVT, and have tried various oils, trying to find out which ones are quieter. My 2005 pickup with approx 130k on it, literally sounds like a diesel when it's cold, LOTS of piston rattle which goes away when it warms up. No exhaust leaks, fixed them cuz it was really easy to pull the manifolds. The quietest oil so far is Havoline PRO DS in 0-20. Heavier oils make it NOISIER, not quieter. Valvoline, Napa, and M-1 seem the noisiest with the M1 winning this competition. QSUD seems to fall somewhere in the middle.No noticeable difference in fuel economy or oil usage between any of them.

My 2007 Grand Cherokee with 173k on the clock sounds entirely different. Has the exhaust leak when cold, which goes away after about 3 minutes, then it sounds quiet for about 5-7 minutes, then starts to have a tick like a lifter. If you blip the throttle, the tick goes away for about a minute, then returns. After it idles for about 12 minutes, it gradually goes away and sounds quiet. Here, again, Havoline PRO DS seems to make it quieter quicker. Haven't experimented with viscosity since it has MDS and it need all the fuel economy I can get..... Don't plan on fixing the exhaust leak cuz, have you seen how much room is around the manifolds in one of these with a Hemi?

Now for the $6000 questions; what is different in the PRO DS that makes my Hemis get quieter? or, why my pickup prefer a lighter oil instead of a heavier one?

 

[nicholas]

Lubegard biotech perhaps.

 

[CarDoc66]

Funny thing is earlier Hemi’s didn’t clack much on start up. My 2011 5.7 has no valve train noise on start up, none. Somethings changed in that motor and I suspect it’s got to do with a change in lifter design.

 

[CarDoc66]

Ive narrowed down a loud knock/tick on my 2017 Hemi RAM...it happens like this:

If the truck sat, say overnight, then I start it just to move it a short distance (think: to the other side of my driveway), then shut it down....if I start it again within an hour or two, it will make a fairly loud knocking noise for 3 seconds at startup. Not a lifter tick, IMHO....its a deeper tone.

If I: drive it longer before shutting down (as simple as driving through the roundabout at the end of our street) OR I let it sit for an extended period again, the loud knock does not occur at startup.

I have no idea WHY it does it, but over on RAMForum it seems to be a common thing in this exact scenario. Im not sure if that is what the manual is referring to or not as a "short distance". There are theories as to what it is but I dont think anyone knows for sure (probably not even Mopar).

I’m betting it’s the cam phaser....almost every engine with VVT phasers rattles briefly on cold start now and then, some do on every start.

 

[53' Stude]

Didn’t realize something this new would have hydraulic lash adjusters.

please tell me that your joking

 

[53' Stude]

And replaced with what?

 

[JTK]

Two things I would definitely do if I owned a hemi ticker. Don't extend the oil change interval beyond maybe 5K miles and be sure to cut open the used oil filter to inspect it for metal bits.

The pics of rounded off cam lobes I've seen from hemi tickers w/ major valvetrain issues would show glittery bits in the oil filters even on the onset of the problem I'd think.

I still cut the OFs open every time on my 2019 Ram 1500 hemi even though I'm lucky enough to have a silent one (in terms of ticks/taps).

 

[53' Stude]

What would they have instead? Mechanical lash adjusters? AKA Solid lifters like a high performance 50s Chevy?

Edit: how many OHV V-8 engines, like the Hemi, have you worked on?

He has not worked on any to be honest.

 

[Whitestar]

I noticed a new bit of info in the 2021 Ram owners manuals about the HEMI start-up tick:


Anyone want to explain why short trips may exacerbate the start-up tick?

They say it's "normal" and doesn't harm the engine but I disagree. My 2019 has done this since new. I sent an oil sample to Blackstone and it came back with really high iron and copper numbers. Including the factory fill the last oil change was the 4th oil fill in the engine.

 

[53' Stude]

I would be even more surprised if it didn't have them.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Has anyone considered that the lifters ticking, and bleeding down too fast, might be poorly machined lifter bores? That's something that a thicker oil might help and possibly even prolong the engine's life; however, it won't permanently fix. As far as I know, Chrysler uses a 3rd party supplier for the 5.7 HEMI blocks, and Q&A isn't the best. I've also heard that it cost them less money to manufacture a 5.7 HEMI than it does a 3.6 Pentastar. It only stands to reason that they will overlook certain manufacturing issues about quality and tolerances in pursuit of profits.

It's funny to me how most people with a 5.7 HEMI that ticks or makes noises, or the owner thinks that it ticks after reading too many forum posts tries a few different brands of 5W-20 and 5W-30 GF5/GF6A ILSAC oils and then completely bypasses any easily available ACEA A3/B4 5W-30 or 0W-40 motor oil, and buy Red Line 5W-30 because they read it on a forum. Some try Red Line 5W-20 first, and the engine doesn't sound as smooth, so they move up. One might give Castrol GTX 20W-50 a try in the summer and see how that sounds. I use Lubegard and Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, and it runs and sounds great. However, I am not one hundred percent convinced that Lubegard helps. To be continued...

 

[skyblue]

I have a new-ish ram that started doing start-up rattle. It's not the normal hemi tick, it's the kind that shows up when you start it, drive 5 mins and then turn it off. Come back out of the store 30 mins later and start it back up and the rattle appears for 1 to 2 seconds. It never happens at any other time, truck runs smooth as butter otherwise.

I have been running Redline for a while in this truck. I had 5w-30 during the summer, and never heard the noise. I have heard it many months ago, I believe before switching to Redline but can't be certain. In any case it didn't do it for at least a year, until the end of the summer at the end of my oil change right before switching to Redline 0w-30 for winter usage.

Now it's doing that rattle almost everytime I make that same trip to the store. I can't be certain that the oil change made things worse, or whether its' just conincidence that it started happening at the end.

I'm running royal purple oil filters as well.

Is there any further ideas on this? I know some say "its not the oil" but I have to believe there is something that is making the problem worse, because it certainly never did it this much before, even before the switch to Redline 2 years ago.

So if it is partially oil related, it's definitely the worst I've seen now on Redline 0w-30.

If it isn't the oil, why does the problem get worse? Any ideas on fixing this?

 

[OVERKILL]

I have a new-ish ram that started doing start-up rattle. It's not the normal hemi tick, it's the kind that shows up when you start it, drive 5 mins and then turn it off. Come back out of the store 30 mins later and start it back up and the rattle appears for 1 to 2 seconds. It never happens at any other time, truck runs smooth as butter otherwise.

I have been running Redline for a while in this truck. I had 5w-30 during the summer, and never heard the noise. I have heard it many months ago, I believe before switching to Redline but can't be certain. In any case it didn't do it for at least a year, until the end of the summer at the end of my oil change right before switching to Redline 0w-30 for winter usage.

Now it's doing that rattle almost everytime I make that same trip to the store. I can't be certain that the oil change made things worse, or whether its' just conincidence that it started happening at the end.

I'm running royal purple oil filters as well.

Is there any further ideas on this? I know some say "its not the oil" but I have to believe there is something that is making the problem worse, because it certainly never did it this much before, even before the switch to Redline 2 years ago.

So if it is partially oil related, it's definitely the worst I've seen now on Redline 0w-30.

If it isn't the oil, why does the problem get worse? Any ideas on fixing this?

Could be the ADBV on the filter is letting the "head" of oil back into the pan. Easiest way to test would be to try another filter. My wife's truck periodically does a click/clack when it first catches that immediately goes away, none of my 6.4's have ever done it. Truck has done it since new, has fantastic oil pressure, I assume it's probably VCT related.

 

[skyblue]

Could be the ADBV on the filter is letting the "head" of oil back into the pan. Easiest way to test would be to try another filter. My wife's truck periodically does a click/clack when it first catches that immediately goes away, none of my 6.4's have ever done it. Truck has done it since new, has fantastic oil pressure, I assume it's probably VCT related.

I had heard that the ADBV could be a problem, and that's why I switched to Royal Purple to try and mitigate that. This is the first time I'm using the large RP 20-280 filter. I swapped to 0w-30 and the 20-820 for the first time this oil change.

If the RP is not a good filter, any suggestions? Fram? Wix? I thought any filter with a silicone ADBV would be best?

 

[OVERKILL]

I had heard that the ADBV could be a problem, and that's why I switched to Royal Purple to try and mitigate that. This is the first time I'm using the large RP 20-280 filter. I swapped to 0w-30 and the 20-820 for the first time this oil change.

If the RP is not a good filter, any suggestions? Fram? Wix? I thought any filter with a silicone ADBV would be best?

The RP is an excellent filter, but sometimes you get a dud, it happens. I've had a FRAM Ultra that leaked, FRAM sent me two new ones. I've had ADBV leakages with a few filters, some of them premium, on our old Expedition. It is what it is.