HDEO phosphorus levels (ZDDP levels)

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There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP. But its levels have been dropping because of stricter regulations to protect catalytic converters. Phosphorus is the measure of ZDDP in engine oil. It's currently restricted to at least 600 ppm and at most 800 ppm in ILSAC GF-4 and GF-5.

Here is the reply I got from Mobil for my inquiry for the phosphorus level in Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40:

Phosphorous would be typically ~1000 ppm.

Americas Technical Help Desk - supporting
Mobil, Esso, and ExxonMobil branded lubricants


If you know the phosphorus level in Shell Rotella T, Shell Rotella T6, Delo, etc. or contact the technical support and ask them, post it under this thread. Note that UOAs and VOAs are all over the place and therefore please don't post numbers from UOAs and VOAs.
 
Quote:
There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP.
Not exactly. ZDDP is the cheapest while doing an excellent job. A small amount of ZDDP plus a more expensive product like moly or the new liquid titanium does as well or better.

HDEO oils do not adhere to the ILSAC requirements. You will find no HDEO oils with the GF-4 or GF-5 rating. The specs for each are incompatible. Much more important for the HDEO user is the manufacturer specs the oil meets or exceeds...Mack, Cat, Detroit Diesel, etc. If an oil is good enough for those manufacturers, it is good enough for me.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP.

Interested to know how you came to that conclusion.
 
I disagree that the UOAs and VOAs are "all over the place" for RT6. All the ones I've seen cluster around 1000 PPM, +/- 100 PPM. That's not "all over the place" enough to tell me anything other than the fact that its about 1000 PPM. :-)

I also disagree that there is NO alternative to ZDDP. There probably isn't a reliable and equally cheap alternative for protecting 3/4 inch lift muscle car v8 cams running flat tappets and dual valve-springs with 1.7:1 rockers, but there are plenty of alternatives for all other (translation: "normal") engines.

And I firmly believe that the lifter/lobe interface is the ONLY spot in an engine that consistently needs the characteristics of ZDDP. If you need a sacrificial anti-wear additive that ONLY does its job when true metal-to-metal contact occurs anywhere else in a piston engine, then you've got a rather poorly designed engine on your hands.

Do I use HDEOs in gasoline engines myself? Yes, in my muscle cars and even the Jeeps. But not in anything else.
 
the zinc level is usually around 1200-1300 for CJ-4 oils. Phosphorus a little lower. They substitute other additives like moly and boron and magnesium for detergents and anti wear additives.
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Quote:
There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP.
Not exactly. ZDDP is the cheapest while doing an excellent job. A small amount of ZDDP plus a more expensive product like moly or the new liquid titanium does as well or better.

Not quite right. If that was the case, there wouldn't be a lower bound for ZDDP in the current API specifications.

It's true that ZDDP is very cheap but that still doesn't change the fact that it's the best AW additive. It's been around since the late 30s and the only reason oil blenders are looking for new AW additives is the restrictions put in the upper limits, not that there are better AW additives. There simply aren't.

Moly compounds are more a friction modifier and it's been around since the 80s. (Let's also be clear that we aren't talking about molybdenum disulphide EP additive put in greases. You can't use that in oils because it's corrosive in high temperatures. Some people confuse about that.) Moly friction modifiers / antiwear compounds aren't nearly as affective as ZDDP but they usually enhance it. ZDDP also increases friction (which is counter-intuitive but it's true) and you need moly or other FMs to decrease surface friction increased by ZDDP.

Liquid titanium is brand-new and there is limited research on its effectiveness. It's probably more of an FM than an AW additive.

Quote:
HDEO oils do not adhere to the ILSAC requirements. You will find no HDEO oils with the GF-4 or GF-5 rating.

I only gave the ILSAC lower and upper limits as a reference. API limits are different but there is always an upper and a lower limit on ZDDP.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP.

Interested to know how you came to that conclusion.

There are scientific research papers on ZDDP. I've recently read a very good scientific review article.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP.

Interested to know how you came to that conclusion.

There are scientific research papers on ZDDP. I've recently read a very good scientific review article.

Reference:

The history and mechanisms of ZDDP
H. Spikes (Tribology Section, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London SW7 2AZ, UK)
Tribology Letters, Vol. 17, No. 3, Pages 469 - 489, October 2004
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Reference:

The history and mechanisms of ZDDP
H. Spikes (Tribology Section, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London SW7 2AZ, UK)
Tribology Letters, Vol. 17, No. 3, Pages 469 - 489, October 2004


Getting pretty outdated to be used to make sweeping claims about "no" substitutes....
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Reference:

The history and mechanisms of ZDDP
H. Spikes (Tribology Section, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London SW7 2AZ, UK)
Tribology Letters, Vol. 17, No. 3, Pages 469 - 489, October 2004


Getting pretty outdated to be used to make sweeping claims about "no" substitutes....

Seven years is hardly outdated for a scientific paper. The article was published in the ILSAC GF-4 / API SM era. There has only been one ILSAC/API upgrade since then, and it's very recent. Motor-oil formulations have not changed much in the last seven years. To give you perspective, ZDDP has been around for more than 70 years.

Moreover, it would take at least a decade or more of research before someone can claim that they have found something that could truly replace ZDDP.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
ZDDP is cheap and easy, that's why they use it. Newer stuff is matching or surpassing it.

Bingo.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The history and mechanisms of ZDDP
H. Spikes (Tribology Section, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London SW7 2AZ, UK)
Tribology Letters, Vol. 17, No. 3, Pages 469 - 489, October 2004

Excerpts from the ZDDP review paper:

1. Introduction

Zinc dithiophosphates (ZDDPs) are arguably the
most successful lubricant additives ever invented. They
were introduced over 60 years ago, have been in continuous
use ever since and are still being employed in
practically all current engine oils. This longevity is all
the more striking since strenuous efforts have been
made by additive companies over the last 10 years to
replace them, but in vain. It has so far proved impossible
to identify any reasonably cost-effective compound
having comparable antiwear performance to ZDDPs
in engine oils.
As well as being remarkable in their performance,
ZDDPs have also been astonishingly successful in their
ability to inspire research. The last half century has
seen an extraordinary number of published research
papers describing investigations of how these additives
behave in their triple role as antioxidants, corrosion
inhibitors and antiwear agents.

oil_additive_chronology.jpg


...

It is not yet clear whether the limits of phosphorus
and sulphur in engine oils will be reduced further in
future, leading perhaps to the eventual disappearance
of ZDDP. Recently, attention has started to focus on
the possibility of replacing a blanket limit on the level
of phosphorus and sulphur in engine oils to a measure
that better reflects the tendency of these elements to
volatilise and thus reach the after-treatment catalyst
[15]. This may eventually lead to a limit on P- and
S-containing additive volatility or to a test which monitors
these species in the exhaust and thus permits
imaginative new formulations based on low volatility
additives [13]. Whatever the future however, there is
no doubt that the slow pace of reduction of phosphorus
levels in engine oil specifications over the last
5 years reflects the remarkable effectiveness of ZDDP
as an antiwear additive, and the great difficulty that
additive companies have had in finding a replacement
with comparable performance.

...

4.8. Antiwear properties of ZDDP

When considering the mechanisms by which ZDDP
prevents wear, it is important to note that ZDDP is
both an antiwear and a mild EP additive, i.e. it both
reduces wear and also inhibits the onset of scuffing.
This was recognised in the 1960s, when the influence
of metal type and alkyl group structure on wear and
EP behaviour were measured and compared [35,36].
Antiwear effectiveness was found to correlate inversely
with thermal stability of the ZDDP but this trend was
less clear-cut with respect to EP effectiveness [35]. Several
studies have suggested that the antiwear behaviour
of ZDDP results from its ability to form a phosphate
film while its EP response results from its ability to
form iron sulphide [53,130]. This is consistent with
other antiwear and EP additives; sulphur-free phosphorus
additives are often effective antiwear but generally
ineffective EP additives, while organic sulphides,
although possessing some wear-reducing capability are
generally regarded as EP additives [131,132]. Similarly,
studies have shown that in mild rubbing conditions the
surface film present is mainly a thick phosphate film
but that in severe, heavily loaded/high sliding speed
conditions a much thinner film with high sulphur content
is formed [53]. Thus we need to distinguish
between the ‘‘mild-wear’’ and ‘‘severe wear’’ action of
ZDDP, the latter being essentially an EP response.
This EP aspect will not be discussed in detail in this
review except to note that studies of thermal degradation
of ZDDP have shown that most of the sulphur
present in these molecules is converted to oil-soluble
organic sulphides and disulphides and that these are
well-known EP additives.

From the literature, three main ways that ZDDP
acts as an antiwear agent have been proposed; (i) by
forming a mechanically protective film; (ii) by removing
corrosive peroxides or peroxy-radicals; (iii) by
‘‘digesting’’ hard and thus abrasive iron oxide particles.
Each of these is discussed briefly below.

The most generally accepted view of ZDDP antiwear
action is that the reaction film acts simply as a
mechanically protective barrier [133]. This prevents
direct contact and thus adhesion between metal or
metal oxide surfaces and may also operate as a cushion,
reduces the stresses experienced by the asperity
peaks of the metal substrate. The relative importance
of these two effects has not been determined. With this
type of antiwear action, once a ZDDP film forms,
practically all that wear that subsequently occurs is
presumed to be that of the ZDDP film itself. (In fact,
ZDDP tribofilms appear to be very resistant to wear
and several studies have shown that once formed they
H. Spikes/The history and mechanisms of ZDDP 483
are only very slowly worn away even when the ZDDPcontaining
oil is replaced by a base oil [89,103]). In
this case, in mild wear conditions, the only loss of substrate
may be from iron oxide which has reacted to
form a phosphate film.

The second proposed mechanism of the antiwear
action of ZDDP is that it reacts with peroxides in the
lubricant; thereby preventing these from corrosively
wearing the metal surfaces present [69,70]. This mechanism
was convincingly demonstrated by both Habeeb
and Rounds in the 1980s and no subsequent work has
challenged it.

The third suggestion is more controversial. Martin
and colleagues have proposed that iron oxide particles,
that would cause abrasive wear, embed in the
ZDDP antiwear film and are ‘‘digested’’ to form
relatively soft iron phosphate, thus negating their
harmful pro-wear effect [62,64,129]. This model
appears to have been inferred from identification of
iron phosphate in wear particles and in the rubbing
track rather than any direct evidence of iron particle
digestion. It does seem likely that iron oxide from
the metal substrate diffuses into the ZDDP reaction
film to replace some of the zinc cations with iron ones
and form iron phosphates, and recently SIMS depth
profiling has been used to show that there is a much
lower iron oxide concentration beneath the ZDDP
tribofilm that on the surrounding metal surfaces
[96]. What is lacking as yet is direct evidence that
harmful iron wear particles are removed by a digestion
process.

One interesting aspect of ZDDP wear performance
that has arisen very recently is that ZDDPs appear to
strongly promote micropitting wear. Micropitting
results from localised plastic deformation due to the
surface loadings resulting from rolling/sliding asperity
contact and it has been shown that ZDDP, because it
very rapidly forms a protective film, prevents or postpones
effective running-in of rough surfaces. This leads
to high asperity stresses being maintained and consequent
micropitting [134]. What is not yet clear is the
extent to which this is an undesirable feature of all antiwear
additives or of ZDDPs in particular.
 
It has always seemed to me that reducing the ZDDP in oils just comes down to another example of government regulations causing problems in private industry as well as driving up the price of, in this case, oil. I've always been a fan of ZDDP and don't really trust the newer additives that compete with it in an old car with flat tappets.

I fail to understand how ZDDP in the oil will hurt a catalytic converter unless the engine is using or burning oil to begin with. I doubt ZDDP really hurts catalytic converters at all. I'd like to know how many cases were "PROVEN" where ZDDP ruined a catalytic converter if the engine was in good running condition and wasn't using/burning oil.

They could still allow high ZDDP oils on the market instead of forcing blanket regulations on all the big manufacturers. Those with Cats could just buy the proper oil and those without cats could buy the oil with high ZDDP content. It would be nice to find a 5-30 on the shelf with high ZDDP without going to a specialty oil.

The feds have always been the champions of telling those who actually know how to do something how to do it when the feds know nothing about the various industries they want to "regulate".

I've seen it first hand myself for decades.
 
Still waiting for evidence that "there is no good antiwear-additive substitute for ZDDP."
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500

I fail to understand how ZDDP in the oil will hurt a catalytic converter unless the engine is using or burning oil to begin with. I doubt ZDDP really hurts catalytic converters at all. I'd like to know how many cases were "PROVEN" where ZDDP ruined a catalytic converter if the engine was in good running condition and wasn't using/burning oil.


There are a few flaws in your logic here. First off, EVERY piston engine burns oil all the time. Very small amounts, but you can't eliminate consumption, because if you did the top compression ring would wear out in just a few miles. So its a GIVEN that oil does get burned and the byproducts of burning do go through the catcon.

Second, there's no argument that ZDDP does inactivate catalyst materials, just like tetraethyl lead does. The chemistry is irrefutable.

Third, its a SLOW process and a cumulative process. Every thing that goes through a catalyst which can bind to and inactivate catalytic materials does so and will very slowly reduce the amount of active catalyst available to process normal exhaust gasses. Every catalyst molecule that gets "poisoned" is gone forever. Kinda like brain cells when you go out on a bender... eventually you start to sound like Ozzy Osbourne ;-)

Fourth, you're right that during the life of most well-maintained vehicles, you could use oils that have very high ZDDP levels and the catalyst activity would remain high enough to pass emissions tests. But the manufacturers are being held to much longer emission system warranties than they used to, and the desire is to have enough safety margin in the whole emission system design so that it can undergo a LOT of degradation due to poor maintenance or even outright abuse and continue to function well enough to pass emissions testing way out to 200k or more miles. In addition, modern catalysts are more sensitive to "poisoning" than ever. We're talking about cars that come off the assembly line SO clean these days that you literally could lock yourself in a closed garage with one, idling, and be unable to get a case of CO poisoning. CO2 suffocation, yes, but not CO poisoning. That's where the last little bit of margin gained by reducing ZDDP concentrations comes into play- it increases the design margin.

And finally- the modern engines that low-ZDDP oils are targeted toward just DO NOT really need a sacrificial EP additive the way old engines with high cam/follower contact pressures did.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Reference:

The history and mechanisms of ZDDP
H. Spikes (Tribology Section, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London SW7 2AZ, UK)
Tribology Letters, Vol. 17, No. 3, Pages 469 - 489, October 2004


Getting pretty outdated to be used to make sweeping claims about "no" substitutes....

Seven years is hardly outdated for a scientific paper. The article was published in the ILSAC GF-4 / API SM era. There has only been one ILSAC/API upgrade since then, and it's very recent. Motor-oil formulations have not changed much in the last seven years. To give you perspective, ZDDP has been around for more than 70 years.

Moreover, it would take at least a decade or more of research before someone can claim that they have found something that could truly replace ZDDP.


Actually 7 years is a lifetime in the science and technology field, and would be considered very outdated.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: wsar10
Actually 7 years is a lifetime in the science and technology field, and would be considered very outdated.

About seven years ago, API introduced the SM category. Just recently they introduced the SN category. What changed between SM and SN with regard to ZDDP?
 
With regard the catalytic converters, my 85 Corolla, which was built during the emergence of the strict emission regulations, has a three-way catalyst and an oxidation catalyst. The oil category back then was SF or SF/CC, which had no limits on ZDDP. (First limits, 1200 ppm P, were introduced by SH/GF-1 in 1994.) On top of that my car was burning 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles for the last seven years or so. (I've just changed the valve-stem oil seals and I expect that oil consumption has now stopped.) California emission-tests are very strict but it has no problem passing them. So, my TWC/OC has survived 26 years of high-ZDDP oil in all conditions.

Moreover, API/ILSAC started putting lower bounds (600 ppm P) on ZDDP since SM/GF-4. Therefore, they are acknowledging that there is currently no good substitute for ZDDP. Upper and lower bounds (600 ppm P and 800 ppm P, respectively) haven't changed with the introduction of SN/GF-5, meaning that nothing has changed with regard to ZDDP in the last seven years (answering my rhetorical question in my previous post).

----

Table:
Phosphorus and sulphur limits in engine-oil specifications.

1989 SG No P, S limits
1994 SH, GF-1 1997 SJ, GF-2 2000 SL, GF-3 2004 GF-4 0.06% wt. 2010 GF-5 0.06% wt. <= P <= 0.08% wt., <= 0.50% wt. S
 
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