GUYS - - - HELP!

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Got a rather verbal shoutfest going on here at work, with a female coworker. She makes the statement that all synthetic oils are the same, just "some are prettier than others," and "Men think that just because I'm a woman they can sell me anything about cars." When I told her that not only are there chemical differences between them, but that they are even divided into classes, I got called a "right wing nazi." She's argreed to read your replies until 8pm, PST. Remember, you're writing to a lady, so, let's go...

By the way, her name is Bette.
 
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For most engines and common OCI she is correct.

She needs to apologize calling you a Nazi PERIOD.

Don't get caught up with this [censored]. Oil is NO REASON to be throwing words like she has said above.

Bill
 
Sorry im a little late but yes there are different groups of synthetic and even if they are the same groups there are different add packs for each group depending on the manufacturer. Do a search on here if you do not believe me. There is plenty of information for each group on here. And some that are allowed to be called synthetic here in the US that are not allowed to be called synthetic in some other countries.
 
shoutfest over oil? is this a joke?
lol.gif
 
you're right of course. does she understand about group 3,4,5 grade's? does she understand the benefit's as applied to most vehicle's? does she know about api classification's? or about tbn's? is she a lubrication engineer? tell her to register here and become one of us!
 
you're right of course. does she understand about group 3,4,5 grade's? does she understand the benefit's as applied to most vehicle's? does she know about api classification's? or about tbn's? is she a lubrication engineer? tell her to register here and become one of us!
 
Refining processes ...basic components ...the list is broad and long. I don't have the "uumph" to run down the distinctions in detail (at the moment).
 
All oils are different. They are from different base stocks. They have different add packs, they might be stouter than others. If all synthetic oils are the same, why not say all convetionals are the same?
 
Yes they are different and many have special applications:

Racing, High heat, Cold weather performance, Long OCI.
 
Shamus, I apologize for the crude remarks made in this thread. I hope your friend will continue to read this web site and learn about the various oils. The members here are the most knowledgeable people she will find. The members are willing to share their information and back it up with facts.

Helen
 
There absolutely are different classifications of Synthetic oils!

Go to the Mfg's websites if she doesn't believe us.

Geez.
 
Why is a synthetic oil better?
Synthetic lubricants are chemically engineered from pure chemicals rather than refined from crude oil. That gives them significant advantages over refined oils. Conventional oils (dinosaur juice) - the oils most people are familiar with - are refined from crude oil. Refining is a process of physically separating light oil components from heavy ones. Synthetic lubricants are pure, their molecular structure is uniform, and they are designed to work in applications in which refined oils cannot. Their ability in reducing friction, heat and wear for maximum power, performance and fuel efficiency, and resistant to high temperature burn-off, chemical breakdown and sludging makes them superior to all petroleum oils at keeping engines cleaner, reducing wear, etc.

When is a synthetic NOT a synthetic?
In 1998 Castrol Syntec created a new refining process called Hydro Cracking. They simply refined their petroleum oil to a very high degree, and called it "Synthetic." Exxon Mobil sued the Castrol Company for false marketing; however the judging board declared "synthetic" as only a marketing term, and not based on the oils components. Now due to the cost of creating true synthetics 95% of all "synthetic" motor oils on the market are actually petroleum based or petroleum/synthetic blends and not true synthetics. The big oil companies can sell them as "synthetic" while it costs them less to produce their oils and increase their profits. True synthetics on the other hand are genuine group 4, Poly-Alpha-Olefin - PAO, 100% true "synthetics." So while it may say synthetic on the label in reality it may be a blend or a highly refined conventional oil labeled and sold as a synthetic while it is really not a true synthetic so she would be wrong in stating that "all" synthetics are the same as they are not; some oil companies just use synthetic as a marketing term and they really don't sell a true synthetic buyer beware!!
 
Originally Posted By: SHAMUS
Got a rather verbal shoutfest going on here at work, with a female coworker. She makes the statement that all synthetic oils are the same, just "some are prettier than others," and "Men think that just because I'm a woman they can sell me anything about cars." When I told her that not only are there chemical differences between them, but that they are even divided into classes, I got called a "right wing nazi." She's argreed to read your replies until 8pm, PST. Remember, you're writing to a lady, so, let's go...

By the way, her name is Bette.


I'd ask Bette to define "the same."

Either of you may be right.

You are right in so much as there are different ways to formulate synthetic oils. She can research group III, group IV and group V oils and find there are differences.

She can be right in so much as they will accomplish the same things.

It's kinda like there are different pain relievers. They have different formulations, but accomplish the same job.

So you both may be right.

However, the Nazi comment was over the top, it's verbally abusive and she owes you a PUBLIC apology for such an outburst in the workplace.
 
April 8, 2009
Truth in Advertising: BP v. Royal Purple
By George Gill

Royal Purple Ltd. was black and blue after BP Lubricants USA took it to task over advertising claims for its synthetic motor oil, finding a receptive audience in the advertising industry’s self-regulatory forum.

The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus recommended Porter, Texas-based Royal Purple modify or discontinue numerous advertising claims for its synthetic motor oil, following a challenge by Wayne, N.J.-based BP Lubricants. The NAD examined comparative performance and superiority claims in print, broadcast and Internet advertising. In some of the advertising, Royal Purple compared its performance to Castrol, Shell, Amsoil and other motor oil brands.

NAD recommended that Royal Purple discontinue its use of consumer testimonials reporting specific performance attributes in the absence of reliable independent evidence showing performance capability.

“Anecdotal evidence based solely on the experiences of individual consumers is insufficient to support product efficacy claims, including claims related to horsepower, torque, fuel economy or engine heat,” the organization stated. “While the advertiser may quote from published articles if it provides clear and conspicuous attribution to the publisher, it may not rely on such articles to support efficacy claims for which it has no reliable independent validation.”

NAD recommended Royal Purple discontinue claims such as “Increases horsepower and torque by as much as 3 percent,” “Reduces Engine Wear by 80 percent,” “Superior Oxidation Stability” and “Provides Film Strength Up to 400 Percent.”

“If industry-standard tests or tests with carefully documented controls were abandoned, there would be no basis whatsoever for making any meaningful claims about the relative efficacy of motor oils,” BP said in its challenge.

NAD recommended that Royal Purple discontinue claims that stated, “Improves fuel economy by as much as 5 percent” and “Fuel economy improvement up to 5 percent or more” because its Environmental Protection Agency testing was inconclusive and the “Oklahoma State Study” and single cylinder Labeco CLR diesel engine testing cited in Royal Purple’s advertising was not relevant. The NAD noted the 1997 OSU Study was “outdated and nothing in the record demonstrated that the formulations of the competitors’ oils were similar to those available for sale on the market today.”

BP Lubricants said it hired the independent laboratory Southwest Research Institute, in San Antonio, to analyze power output of gasoline engines with Royal Purple Oil and with BP’s Castrol oil for comparisons. “The results were provided to the challenger’s expert statistician who was not informed of the identity of the candidate oils,” NAD stated. “The challenger’s [BP’s] expert determined a 0.9 percent difference in power between the oils, which did not rise to the level of statistical significance, and is well below the 3 percent claim made by the advertiser.”

SwRI did additional tests to independently determine the differences in fuel economy, emissions data and engine temperature between Royal Purple and Castrol motor oils. According to SwRI, “there was no statistically significant difference between the fuel economy, emissions data or engine temperature between the two candidate oils,” NAD said.

Following its review of the non-anecdotal evidence in the record, NAD recommended that Royal Purple discontinue the claims, “Reduces emissions up to 20 percent or more” and “Reductions in emissions of 20 percent or more” because the studies on which the claims were based were outdated and not consumer-relevant.

NAD also recommended the advertiser discontinue its unsupported claim that Royal purple motor oil is “API/ILSAC Certified.” Noting that API and ILSAC licenses and certifications have many categories with different meanings, the NAD recommended that the company discontinue its claim that its synthetic oils are “generally ‘API/ILSAC Certified.’”

In fact, no Royal Purple products are certified to current ILSAC specifications.

The American Petroleum Institute licenses its trademarked Service Symbol, or ‘donut,’ for display on qualified engine oils, and also licenses the ILSAC ‘starburst’ logo for oils that meet the auto industry’s latest energy-conserving standards. In API’s online directory of licensees for its Engine Oil Licensing and Certification Program, Royal Purple has a total of 23 passenger car and diesel engine oil products listed, all licensed to use the API donut. Five of these may additionally display the words ‘energy conserving’ within the donut logo, but none of the Royal Purple products are licensable to the current ILSAC GF-4 specification and they cannot display the starburst logo.

Royal Purple also voluntarily agreed to discontinue the claims, “most advanced,” “unsurpassed performance” and “unparalleled performance,” steps the NAD said were necessary and proper to avoid confusion in the marketplace.

“While Royal Purple also believes that the tests and testimonials it supplied as evidence accurately portray the benefits of using its synthetic oil in a wide variety of applications, it defers to the NAD’s position that those tests and testimonials alone are insufficient to support specific performance attribute claims in consumer advertising,” the company said in its response to NAD. “... [Royal Purple] has already made changes to its advertising in accordance with the NAD recommendations and will continue to implement NAD’s recommendations and analysis in developing Royal Purple’s future advertising.”

BP Lubricants did not return phone calls from Lube Report requesting comment on NAD’s decision.
 
Some give better protection and last longer than others, depending on whether they're formulated with Ester or PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) stock. Synthetic oils made from the ester class are much more expensive, but are more durable and hold up under hotter temperatures.

Synthetic oils have different base stocks, which comprise some 90% of the oil. The base stock is the actual lubricant The other 10% or so is the additive package. The relative ability of oils to lubricate is determined by the components of the base stock. There are two principal classes of base stocks used in real synthetic oils: synthesized hydrocarbons (PAOs) and organic esters.

PAOs
The base stock materials used today many popular synthetic oils are made of carbon and hydrogen molecules. These
are synthesized from ethylene gas molecules into PolyAlphaOleflns (PAO). Almost all the synthetic oils sold in the stores are made with PAO base stocks. PAOs provide better viscosity characteristics, are more resistant to oxidation and have much better low operating properties than petroleum oils. PAOs are cheaper synthetic oil base stocks, and aren't as durable as the ester class of synthetic oils. Some of the popular brands of PAO oils include Amsoil and Mobil-1.
These are known as a Group IV oil.

ESTERS (Polyolesters)
Organic esters are made by reacting certain acids with alcohols, forming acid esters. There are alcohol diesters and
Polyol esters. This process uses expensive materials and results in lubricants that cost many times more than PAOs.
Only esters are durable enough to withstand the rigors of jet engine operation and they are used in racing and high performance cars. These oils can cost $8 dollars or more a quart. Redline is an example of an ester synthetic oil.
These are known as a Group V oil.

Hydrocracked (sometimes called Hydrowax)
These are petroleum oils that have been hydroisomerized, as it is commonly called. The most stringent level of petroleum oil refining. Much of the paraffin and impurities have been removed and its performance on any number of industry tests is substantially better than it's group two cousins (the regular oil petroleum oil used in automobiles).
Although it is not made from a synthesized, engineered molecule and as such is not a true synthetic oil, it does offer a portion of the benefits you would expect from a true synthetic and in fact is usually sold and marketed as a 100% synthetic product. Hydrowaxes are very cheap to produce, even cheaper than olefins, making them the cheapest of all the synthetics. As they are formulated from crude oil base stocks they aren't a true synthetic. These are known as a Group III oil. Castrol Syntec is known for using this method.

Quality
Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.
This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap.



Differences in same Brands.

Even the same brand of synthetic oil can have different qualities. Mobil 1 has several different qualities available in the same weights. You can buy 5W/20, 5W/30, 10W/30, 15W/50 Mobil 1 in the "Extended Performance" line as well as in the "normal" line of synthetics for less than a $1 more a quart.

So what is the difference? Here's what the Mobil 1 website has to say about that:
"Mobil 1 Extended Performance formulas are designed specifically for today's longer service intervals and are guaranteed to protect for up to 15,000 miles or one year.
Mobil 1 Extended Performance has a unique formulation with a boosted level of protection and performance. Mobil 1 Extended Performance, with the Advanced SuperSyn* System, contains 50 percent more SuperSyn than Mobil 1"

This might indicate that the extended performance synthetic oil has about 50% more synthetic base stock than their regular "fully" synthetic oil. This would probably be a much better buy for the slightly increased cost.

*Mobil's definition of SuperSyn: "Mobil SuperSyn PAOs were developed to extend the range of conventional high viscosity PAOs and maintain excellent low temperature fluidity. Mobil SuperSyn PAOs are a class of high viscosity, high Viscosity Index (VI) polyalphaolefins manufactured by Mobil Chemical using patented, proprietary technology."
 
Of course, the real question is what is she passionate about (no not that kind of passion) You know, shoes, decorating, books.

When she brings up what she's passionate about, such as brand XYZ of that is better than brand PDQ, tell her you are not a dumb man who can be sold anything, XYZ and PDQ are the same thing.

What one is a passion to one is just the same to another.
 
If she was his wife, I'd suggest the same. However, it seems she can be a bully at work with the Nazi comment and should probably consider herself lucky it's not an HR incident and just a discussion on some site full of oil nerds.
 
Originally Posted By: SHAMUS
Thanks, to most of you for trying; but after that one remark, she refuses to return to read. You tried, and I thank you.


I guess "that one remark" was deleted as it appears things are rather respectful and informative here.
 
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