Great post running thinner oils.

[Jim Allen]

There is something to be said for a person like Dr. Haas who has the courage to hang himself and his ideas out there in a big way for criticism... often by the sneering "one-liner brigade" who protect their basic ignorance by using disrespectful one-line comments instead serious, factual critique that actually takes some effort. Or cherry picking one inelegant thought out of hundreds or thousands in an attempt to dismiss the writer without themselves actually putting any intellectual "skin" in the game.

Dr. Haas has given this board a lot of material to chew on and I'm grateful for it. Most of it is thought-inspiring and interesting, even if you or I consider some of it incorrect or debatable. He is one of the posters that, over the years, opened my eyes to aspects of viscosity I had never before considered.

Enlightened criticism is a form of respect. Wish we could see more if it here but if you compare BITOG to some other boards, this is the Acropolis of the internet.

 

[ledslinger]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
There is something to be said for a person like Dr. Haas who has the courage to hang himself and his ideas out there in a big way for criticism... often by the sneering "one-liner brigade" who protect their basic ignorance by using disrespectful one-line comments instead serious, factual critique that actually takes some effort. Or cherry picking one inelegant thought out of hundreds or thousands in an attempt to dismiss the writer without themselves actually putting any intellectual "skin" in the game.

Dr. Haas has given this board a lot of material to chew on and I'm grateful for it. Most of it is thought-inspiring and interesting, even if you or I consider some of it incorrect or debatable. He is one of the posters that, over the years, opened my eyes to aspects of viscosity I had never before considered.

Enlightened criticism is a form of respect. Wish we could see more if it here but if you compare BITOG to some other boards, this is the Acropolis of the internet.


Well said.

 

[Trav]

Not everyone worships at the same alter.
Some of the stuff AEHaas post like the oil line trick are just downright dangerous for the engine.
The guy has a lot of good info, no one is knocking him but he also does some bizarre stuff also that seems real iffy.

How many times have we seen post that say follow the manufacturers spec? The engineers know best and all that sort of stuff. People get downright uppity about it.
When AEHaas says something like i bought a brand new Rolls Royce or a Ferrari, drove it home drained the FF out and put 20w or 30w in it these same folks are wetting themselves because he is doing something revolutionary.

Sorry. It just seems a Dr title, a few bucks and some exotic cars blind people.
If joe schmuck with a Ford posted some of this stuff people would be all over him.

I think RR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maybach engineers have tested and built the engines to a degree far beyond that of any normal grocery getter and know what oil is optimal to use in it.

I am sorry if anyone is offended. I have nothing against Dr Haas but i see things some of the stuff he does (not necessarily his theories) differently.
Debate and discuss the theories all day but if joe goes and does something to his new Ford or Chevy like trying to get every last drop of oil out and ends up with a rod or main bearing knock because someone held in such high esteem on an internet forum did it that's not good.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Not everyone worships at the same alter.


Not worship in my case. Simple respect.

Originally Posted By: Trav


Some of the stuff AEHaas post like the oil line trick are just downright dangerous for the engine. The guy has a lot of good info, no one is knocking him but he also does some bizarre stuff also that seems real iffy.


Well, I wouldn't have done that but what the difference from what he did vs when they start brand new engine? Or starting a rebuilt engine? Many people/companies start 'em dry for the first time... not that I agree with it.

[/quote]

Originally Posted By: Trav


Sorry. It just seems a Dr title, a few bucks and some exotic cars blind people.
If joe schmuck with a Ford posted some of this stuff people would be all over him.

I think RR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maybach engineers have tested and built the engines to a degree far beyond that of any normal grocery getter and know what oil is optimal to use in it.



I think you've missed his point entirely and need to reread his material. Everything he says is predicated on how the vehicle is used. He admits that most of his cars are in grocery getter mode wheere a lighter oil is more efficatious and perhaps optimal. The OE mfr, especially of a supercar, is going to assume the goal is for the car to be used hard and will spec the oil for that application. Haas is pretty clear about what he does, why he's doing it and why/how it doesn't work for everyone in every situation. It's very plainly stated in my opinion and if someone can't comprehend or doesn't fully read the material whatever happens is on them.

Originally Posted By: Trav

I am sorry if anyone is offended. I have nothing against Dr Haas but i see things some of the stuff he does (not necessarily his theories) differently.
Debate and discuss the theories all day but if joe goes and does something to his new Ford or Chevy like trying to get every last drop of oil out and ends up with a rod or main bearing knock because someone held in such high esteem on an internet forum did it that's not good.


Trav, with respect, you are in the same boat as Haas. You, like many of us here, have advocated straying from the OE line; for example, I remember your advocating some thicker-than-spec'ed oils. From what I remember, you, in my opinion, offer plenty of caveats and explanation for someone who reads the material completely. Fine by me, even if I don't agree. If "Johann Schmidt" were to follow your example, however, and pour in some 20W60... say at Point Barrow, Alaska, in the dead of winter... are you responsible for the problems or is he? Same thing applies to Haas.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Acropolis?

I got it, Jim. Almost fell off my stool!

 

[Clevy]

I for one like to read dr.hass' articles and writings. I think he is very brave using thinner oils is such expensive vehicles. Alot of testicular fortitude there,so I find it admirable. And that he posts his findings is helpful to guys like me,who have always thought thicker is better. I'm going to try the thinner stuff this summer in my mustang and my truck is going to also get a try out on a thinner oil,since it's my winter beater anyways and will likely benefit from the lowered resistance at start up.
I've already bought an oil pressure gauge and oil temp gauge so I can see exactly what's going on in the mustang,and then will be able to make an informed decision on what I should be using,in my particular application(drag racing,autocross).
Guys like the doc,caterham,dnewton are an invaluable resource to guys like me who haven't really learned the new oil tech,and their testing and knowledge,which they share openly is a gift.
I also pay attention to trav's posts since he is in the trenches getting his hands dirty and has a visual on what oils do what in particular motors,which is a fantastic resource because he will speak from experience,not what looks good on paper.
I also like that these posters aren't fanboys of any one particular brand. They use different brands and comment from experience,instead of " I've been using x brand for 10000 mile intervals blah blah blah.
How can a person even comment on something they have never used. Its like a broken record,so I'm glad to see respected posters using different things.
It shows that not one particular product is perfect for every application.
Just my opinion.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Trav
Not everyone worships at the same alter.


Not worship in my case. Simple respect.

Originally Posted By: Trav


Some of the stuff AEHaas post like the oil line trick are just downright dangerous for the engine. The guy has a lot of good info, no one is knocking him but he also does some bizarre stuff also that seems real iffy.


Well, I wouldn't have done that but what the difference from what he did vs when they start brand new engine? Or starting a rebuilt engine? Many people/companies start 'em dry for the first time... not that I agree with it.



Originally Posted By: Trav


Sorry. It just seems a Dr title, a few bucks and some exotic cars blind people.
If joe schmuck with a Ford posted some of this stuff people would be all over him.

I think RR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maybach engineers have tested and built the engines to a degree far beyond that of any normal grocery getter and know what oil is optimal to use in it.



I think you've missed his point entirely and need to reread his material. Everything he says is predicated on how the vehicle is used. He admits that most of his cars are in grocery getter mode wheere a lighter oil is more efficatious and perhaps optimal. The OE mfr, especially of a supercar, is going to assume the goal is for the car to be used hard and will spec the oil for that application. Haas is pretty clear about what he does, why he's doing it and why/how it doesn't work for everyone in every situation. It's very plainly stated in my opinion and if someone can't comprehend or doesn't fully read the material whatever happens is on them.

Originally Posted By: Trav

I am sorry if anyone is offended. I have nothing against Dr Haas but i see things some of the stuff he does (not necessarily his theories) differently.
Debate and discuss the theories all day but if joe goes and does something to his new Ford or Chevy like trying to get every last drop of oil out and ends up with a rod or main bearing knock because someone held in such high esteem on an internet forum did it that's not good.


Trav, with respect, you are in the same boat as Haas. You, like many of us here, have advocated straying from the OE line; for example, I remember your advocating some thicker-than-spec'ed oils. From what I remember, you, in my opinion, offer plenty of caveats and explanation for someone who reads the material completely. Fine by me, even if I don't agree. If "Johann Schmidt" were to follow your example, however, and pour in some 20W60... say at Point Barrow, Alaska, in the dead of winter... are you responsible for the problems or is he? Same thing applies to Haas. [/quote]
Jim, well said.

It should also be noted that Ali Haas has oil pressure and oil temp' gauges in all his toys and is on record stating that the minimum oil pressure spec's for an engine is the limiting factor on how light an oil one should run without crossing over into uncharted territory.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

It should also be noted that Ali Haas has oil pressure and oil temp' gauges in all his toys and is on record stating that the minimum oil pressure spec's for an engine is the limiting factor on how light an oil one should run without crossing over into uncharted territory.


This is the part I feel a LOT of people miss, and Jim's point about "grocery getter mode", which is of course in the same vein.

Reading comprehension problems appear to be a plague of sorts. I don't know how many times I've seen somebody read "Oil 101" and come in claiming they are going to run 0w20 in their GM 502, VW TDI....etc without any mention of the intended usage of the vehicle, what their oil temps and pressure are

People really need to listen to what is being advocated here. The mantra "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" is the message. But that doesn't appear to be what is coming across.

The other part of the equation is having the correct equipment on hand to determine what the optimal grade is. And then doing the work!

For somebody uncomfortable with finding out what the manufacturer spec's for minimum acceptable oil pressure, installing an oil pressure and oil temperature gauges and then driving their car, datalogging that information to determine if what they are running is too heavy or too light, swapping it out, and repeating the process until optimal is found, then MY suggestion is run what the manufacturer suggests! If it is 10w60, 0w40 or some other "heavy" grade, if you aren't willing to do the legwork to find out IF you can get away with something thinner, DON'T RUN SOMETHING THINNER! It really IS that simple!

On the other hand, for those willing to follow the route that you (CATERHAM) have outlined on this board a multitude of times for those seeking to find the "optimal" grade for their engine and operating conditions, and are willing to go to the necessary lengths to figure it out, well, I think those people likely already "get" the message.

My beef, and I think one that Trav is in agreement with me on here is this:

The potential for catastrophic failure is far greater running too thin an oil than one that is too thick.

If you've got two cars that spec 0w40, both owners living in Texas, both beat the tar out of their cars, which don't happen to have oil coolers, nor do they have a thermal "safety" on their oil pressure systems (Ford Mustang anyone? Interesting how Ford has an oil temperature safety "limp mode" on the 5w20 spec Mustang GT.......) and one reads "oil 101" and has the typical reading comprehension issue that I mentioned and decides he's going to run 0w20 in his car, whilst the other guy decides to run 10w60, who is at greater risk of spinning a rod bearing here? It is of course 0w20 guy. He's not only deviated from what the manufacturer suggested, but he's gone two grades lighter and didn't factor in how the vehicle was used, nor bothered to track oil pressure and temperature.

The other guy, Mr. 10w60, well, he might have given up some power. His car might be sluggish when cold. But he doesn't risk wiping out a bearing when pushing the car, not tracking his oil pressure and temperature.

The fact that this is a PROCESS is what seems to be lost on people. It isn't "dump in 0w20 and hold on!" but that's exactly the message some people seem to get from the various pieces of discourse on this topic and I think that's what is driving Trav nuts, and it bugs me too.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" is the message. But that doesn't appear to be what is coming across.

The potential for catastrophic failure is far greater running too thin an oil than one that is too thick.


That last line is some good stuff!

And note that both my GM fleet trucks and the Chrysler have a oil temp monitoring system that will put the engines into a 'limp' mode at excessive oil temps. I'm pretty sure most cars do.

But no one has an "excessively thin oil" mode yet!

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The fact that this is a PROCESS is what seems to be lost on people. It isn't "dump in 0w20 and hold on!" but that's exactly the message some people seem to get from the various pieces of discourse on this topic and I think that's what is driving Trav nuts, and it bugs me too.


This drives me nuts too.

It seems that a lot of folks are only interested in "yes" or "no" types of answers. So if their heart is set to run a thin oil, they just skip to the point where it says that it's fine to run it. Then they just keep repeating that these oils are fine to run in everything under the sun without understanding what's involved in the decision making.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Imo,there's a reason most owner's manuals and fsm's state to use a thicker oil if said car is to be raced and/or driven at extended high speeds. Thicker oil for better protection-thinner oil for better fuel economy.

 

[CATERHAM]

OVERKILL, one of the points the Ali Haas likes to emphasis is that he is running a 0W-30 (RLI, which actually has the viscosity characteristics of an oil like M1 0W-40 or PU 0W/5W-40) in place of the spec' Helix 10W-60 in his Enzo Ferrari.
He makes a well documented point that the very heavy spec' 60wt oil is actually a dangerous oil grade to use in the hands of many inexperienced owners. The problem is that the engine MUST be warmed up very carefully every time the engine is started cold, even in the summer to avoid the possibility of catastrophic engine damage due to oil cavitation if the very high rpm rev' limited engines are rev'd too high cold. And with the massive oil sump's, it can take a very long time for the oil temp's to even budge after starting.

It's interesting that for the past few years all current Ferrari models are only spec'd for the rather light Shell/Pennzoil Helix/Ultra 5W-40 motor oil (HTHSV 3.68cP, 180 VI). It's entirely possible that Ferrari has gotten a handle on limiting the possibility of extremely high oil temp's precluding the necessity of specifing an overly heavy oil or have simply chosen a lighter oil as being the lesser of two evils. Better to have slightly elevated engine wear from running a lighter than optimum oil viscosity on the track than what was a too often occurance of complete engine failure running a heavy track oil.

Only a couple of high end performance cars spec' a 50wt or 60wt oil today and even those that do recognize and deal with the issue of running such a heavy oil in various ways. For example BMW has their variable red line limit during warm up and the GP III 5W-50 oil that Ford spec's for a couple of models is in reality a heavy 30wt oil it shears so fast.
It's interesting that Porsche years ago dropped all 50wt oils from it's A40 list (with the exception of M1 5W-50) and have back spec'd to the early 80's MY.

There's no argument that one should always start with the specified oil (not just the grade) that the manufacturer recommends, and if there is a choice of oil grade offered, I think Doug Hillary's often toted advise of going with the lightest grade as the best for general use.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: Garak

Personally, if it were me and I were for some reason obsessive about getting rid of as much of whatever residual oil as I could when doing the oil change, I'd probably do two or three in a row, rather than mess with a bunch of oil cooler plumbing or the like. Both procedures are wasteful of course, either of money or time.


I used to work with a guy that did that, a double change every single OCI. It used to make me laugh at him, it was definitely an OCD.


He'd buy his main change oil, usually the most expensive oil he could get. Then he'd buy another change worth of whatever was the cheapest supermarket oil he could get. Then in a total waste of time and money he'd drop his oil and refill with the cheap supermarket oil, take it for a short drive, drop it again and put his overpriced oil in. LOL

When I was a teenager working in a gas station, a guy we called 'Onion Head' would have us drain the oil, fill with ATF, drive around the block, and then drain and fill with 10-40 LDO.

 

[Greggy_D]

I may be dreaming, but didn't someone on the Ferrari board trash his engine because he emulated Haas's practice of running a Xw-20 weight?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: Garak

Personally, if it were me and I were for some reason obsessive about getting rid of as much of whatever residual oil as I could when doing the oil change, I'd probably do two or three in a row, rather than mess with a bunch of oil cooler plumbing or the like. Both procedures are wasteful of course, either of money or time.


I used to work with a guy that did that, a double change every single OCI. It used to make me laugh at him, it was definitely an OCD.


He'd buy his main change oil, usually the most expensive oil he could get. Then he'd buy another change worth of whatever was the cheapest supermarket oil he could get. Then in a total waste of time and money he'd drop his oil and refill with the cheap supermarket oil, take it for a short drive, drop it again and put his overpriced oil in. LOL

When I was a teenager working in a gas station, a guy we called 'Onion Head' would have us drain the oil, fill with ATF, drive around the block, and then drain and fill with 10-40 LDO.

I had a neighbour as a kid who's oil drain procedure was to drain the oil, reinsert the oil plug and then fill with a single quart or less of new oil, then start the engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes. He new how much oil from experience he
had to add to cover the bottom of the oil pick-up tube with out the oil pressure fluctuating and it wasn't much oil not much more than a pint.
Then he drained the oil again and removed the oil filter.
Let drain thoroughly for atleast an hour or over night before installing a new filter and filling with fresh new oil.

I tried it myself once and in my Europa, (yes I've owned the car that long) and a pint of oil was enough to prevent sucking air on idle but blipping the throttle too high would allow the oil pump to begin to suck air. Anyway, I concluded the procedure was still wasteful as the drained new oil wasn't anywhere near as dirty (black) as the old oil so why bother.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The fact that this is a PROCESS is what seems to be lost on people. It isn't "dump in 0w20 and hold on!" but that's exactly the message some people seem to get from the various pieces of discourse on this topic and I think that's what is driving Trav nuts, and it bugs me too.


This drives me nuts too.

It seems that a lot of folks are only interested in "yes" or "no" types of answers. So if their heart is set to run a thin oil, they just skip to the point where it says that it's fine to run it. Then they just keep repeating that these oils are fine to run in everything under the sun without understanding what's involved in the decision making.


The other point that is missed is that the particular oils that Dr. Haas is using have nothing to do with the oils the vast majority of us buy off the shelf.

His "0W-20" has an HTHS typical of an SAE 30 and his "0W-30" the HTHS typical of an SAE 40. The oils he is using are not as much of a drop in operational viscosity as you would conclude from reading the article.

Ed

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The fact that this is a PROCESS is what seems to be lost on people. It isn't "dump in 0w20 and hold on!" but that's exactly the message some people seem to get from the various pieces of discourse on this topic and I think that's what is driving Trav nuts, and it bugs me too.


This drives me nuts too.

It seems that a lot of folks are only interested in "yes" or "no" types of answers. So if their heart is set to run a thin oil, they just skip to the point where it says that it's fine to run it. Then they just keep repeating that these oils are fine to run in everything under the sun without understanding what's involved in the decision making.


The other point that is missed is that the particular oils that Dr. Haas is using have nothing to do with the oils the vast majority of us buy off the shelf.

His "0W-20" has an HTHS typical of an SAE 30 and his "0W-30" the HTHS typical of an SAE 40. The oils he is using are not as much of a drop in operational viscosity as you would conclude from reading the article.
Ed

Ed, I thought I made that point right off the top!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The fact that this is a PROCESS is what seems to be lost on people. It isn't "dump in 0w20 and hold on!" but that's exactly the message some people seem to get from the various pieces of discourse on this topic and I think that's what is driving Trav nuts, and it bugs me too.


This drives me nuts too.

It seems that a lot of folks are only interested in "yes" or "no" types of answers. So if their heart is set to run a thin oil, they just skip to the point where it says that it's fine to run it. Then they just keep repeating that these oils are fine to run in everything under the sun without understanding what's involved in the decision making.


The other point that is missed is that the particular oils that Dr. Haas is using have nothing to do with the oils the vast majority of us buy off the shelf.

His "0W-20" has an HTHS typical of an SAE 30 and his "0W-30" the HTHS typical of an SAE 40. The oils he is using are not as much of a drop in operational viscosity as you would conclude from reading the article.
Ed

Ed, I thought I made that point right off the top!


Yup, but it is worth mentioning again, because people don't seem to get it

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Ed, I thought I made that point right off the top!


Yup, but it is worth mentioning again, because people don't seem to get it

Yes, you did. As OVERKILL states, it can't be said enough. The article makes no mention of this, unless it has been edited to reflect that fact.

Ed

 

[CATERHAM]

No it's never been edited.
One beef I've had with Haas is that he doesn't recognize the value of HTHSV. He's made noises about trying the Motorcraft 5W-20 (HTHSV 2.6cP) he runs in his Expedition (or Exployer?) in his wife's Lambo' and I've encouraged to try it but to keep his eyes glued to his oil pressure gauge as the OP will drop well below what he's seeing now.