Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Considering that most Mustangs are automatics and are used as grocery getters, I'm not surprised that Ford ditched the cooler and recommended 5w20. These cars probably don't see more than 2.5-3k RPM in everyday driving and cruise at about 2k RPM on the highway. There is nothing there to really heat up the oil for MOST users.

These cars see the same duty cycle as Camrys, Accords and Malibus so they spec the oil to match that. Manufacturers have long figured out the in N/A people don't buy a car or SUV to suit their needs, but to suit their egos. So 5w20 or 0w20 can be suitable in a 5,000lb SUV, a "sports car" like a mustang or an econo box like Civic or Corolla because most of the time these cars will be hauling one person with a lunch box that is stuck in traffic.

Exactly, Ford knows their market.
But even if you are one of the few that order the MT and take your car to the track occationally, all the daily driving that you do including fast road work, will be still be better served with a 20wt oil.
That's why I run it my fast road, track car toy.

 

[edhackett]

True, it looks like there is a 200 hp difference between the GT and Boss. I do agree the GT should have had the cooler standard. It is lame the car is crippled. I expect to be able to drive a car to its capabilities, and can achieve "track" conditions on a normal summer drive across the remote highways here in Nevada.

402 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 regular fuel)
420 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 premium fuel)
444 @ 7,400 rpm (Hi-Po 302 V8)
650 @ 6,250 rpm (5.8L supercharged V8 manual)

Ed

 

[Trav]

Quote:
And it would be more accurate to say that car is spec'd for the Motorcraft 5W-50 which is likely no heavier than a shear stable A3 30wt in service.

likely? Well is it or isn't it?
Then why didn't they spec a A3 30w?

This business with one weight equals another in service is crazy. If they wanted a 30w they would have spec'd it A3 or otherwise!

You are always doing this. A thick 20 is like a 30w, a thin 30w is like as a thick 20w, thin 40's, thick 30's on and on.
You make people crazy with this stuff.

Maybe they didn't do enough desert testing on this one to spec 20w.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
I expect to be able to drive a car to its capabilities, and can achieve "track" conditions on a normal summer drive across the remote highways here in Nevada.

402 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 regular fuel)
420 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 premium fuel)
444 @ 7,400 rpm (Hi-Po 302 V8)
650 @ 6,250 rpm (5.8L supercharged V8 manual)

Ed

Ed, now you're just making me jealous!
I lost my license once for seven days for "excessive speeding". (Had the charge withdrawn, but the cops here can yank you licence on the spot).

 

[edhackett]

Ed, looking around to make sure no NHP are listening.

My record on cruise control is 66 miles at 90mph, only because that's as high as the cc would engage in the WRX. I could have done more miles, but didn't want to blow through Rachel at 90, and we wanted to stop for a burger at the

Ed

 

[JavierG]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I sure would drive one and be seen in one. Whats the name of it the NSX.

You said NSX!!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Found this:

Quote:
Here is a quote from the great Coyote engine write-up from Mustang & Fast Fords:

Consideration was given to an external oil cooler, but ultimately it was decided not to penalize all Coyote buyers for the occasional antics of a miniscule fraction of owners. Oil temperature rises precipitously when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs.

And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.




Ed


hahahaha...so rather than penalising the small percent of users who want to use the outer envelope of the the engine that they purchased and therefore own, Ford will penalise them by not only making them use an oil that is sub-optimal so that they can meet the requirement that the oil that is CAFE tested, but take that performance off them, as the oil has inadequate "headroom" to utilise the engine to it's potential.

But that is not what Ford has done.
A spec' 20wt oil is certainly more optimal for all but track use than using a heavier oil grade with more "headroom". With the oil cooler a heavier oil grade is not required or desired.
If Ford deserves any criticism, it's for not including the "optional" oil cooler as standard equipment.


I believe the BOSS 302 HAS the oil cooler and still spec's 5w50 FWIW.

Also, unless you are tracking oil temperatures, that's a pretty all encompassing statement saying that the 5w20 is more optimal than a heavier oil. Without an oil cooler (which it lacks) the oil temps may be all over the map.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Found this:

Quote:
Here is a quote from the great Coyote engine write-up from Mustang & Fast Fords:

Consideration was given to an external oil cooler, but ultimately it was decided not to penalize all Coyote buyers for the occasional antics of a miniscule fraction of owners. Oil temperature rises precipitously when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs.

And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.




Ed


Thank you Ed! That's what I was looking for. The ECM pulling power based on oil temperature

And it would appear the hot oil issues only happen in` extreme use (e.g. tracking) with that engine. I don't think in any way that 0W20 is a limiting factor for normal use in that engine...


We are talking about a MUSTANG, not a Prius here... Being a former Mustang owner and having wrenched on MANY of them, I can tell you that these cars are often flogged, and flogged hard.

The reason Ford implemented the oil temp safety is to keep the car safe when the temperatures get out of line. That means Ford anticipated oil temps getting out of line in the first place.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

But that is not what Ford has done.
A spec' 20wt oil is certainly more optimal for all but track use than using a heavier oil grade with more "headroom". With the oil cooler a heavier oil grade is not required or desired.
If Ford deserves any criticism, it's for not including the "optional" oil cooler as standard equipment.


The Boss 302 has the oil cooler as standard equipment and requires 5W-50. Apparently the oil cooler by itself is not enough.
Ed

Was the Ford engineer referring to the (650 hp?) Boss 302? No.
And it would be more accurate to say that car is spec'd for the Motorcraft 5W-50 which is likely no heavier than a shear stable A3 30wt in service.
What is the hp range for the Coyote family of engines?


The BOSS 302 is also the Coyote engine but with CNC'd heads, better flowing intake and a few other goodies. It is 444HP (vs the 420HP for the GT), you are thinking of the Shelby.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Considering that most Mustangs are automatics and are used as grocery getters, I'm not surprised that Ford ditched the cooler and recommended 5w20. These cars probably don't see more than 2.5-3k RPM in everyday driving and cruise at about 2k RPM on the highway. There is nothing there to really heat up the oil for MOST users.

These cars see the same duty cycle as Camrys, Accords and Malibus so they spec the oil to match that. Manufacturers have long figured out the in N/A people don't buy a car or SUV to suit their needs, but to suit their egos. So 5w20 or 0w20 can be suitable in a 5,000lb SUV, a "sports car" like a mustang or an econo box like Civic or Corolla because most of the time these cars will be hauling one person with a lunch box that is stuck in traffic.


This certainly applies to the V6 crowd, but if sites like the Corral are any indication, there is a VERY significant portion of the V8 owner segment that tracks their cars.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
True, it looks like there is a 200 hp difference between the GT and Boss. I do agree the GT should have had the cooler standard. It is lame the car is crippled. I expect to be able to drive a car to its capabilities, and can achieve "track" conditions on a normal summer drive across the remote highways here in Nevada.

402 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 regular fuel)
420 @ 6,500 rpm (5.0L V8 premium fuel)
444 @ 7,400 rpm (Hi-Po 302 V8)
650 @ 6,250 rpm (5.8L supercharged V8 manual)

Ed


Ed:

The GT is 420HP, the BOSS 302 is 444HP, the Shelby, which has completely different engine, and is also Supercharged, is 650HP. The last two in the group both spec 5w50.

 

[edhackett]

Thanks for the clarification. The "specs" page on the Mustang page at Ford's site just gave a list of engines hp and torque, not which was in each. I didn't look at each model to see what engine was in each. I should have caught that the hp jump was too big to make sense between the GT and Boss.

Ed

 

[Vikas]

NSX is not a lowly Honda but a premium Acura

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
It's a no brainer. "Optimal viscosity" is going to vary within narrow parameterw according to operational conditions and environment. "Adequate viscosity" is going to be a much wider range.


That makes perfect sense, Jim, and is worth a reread.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Probably old news to many, but I can get Honda 0W20 for $3.41/qt and Honda 5W20 for $2.41/qt from my local Honda dealer's bulk supply.

Now for the dumb question: Anyone have a link to VOA or product spec sheet for either? Not having much luck using search or Google.

 

[CATERHAM]

Hi Bubbajoe,

If your talking about the current ConocoPhillips made Honda Full Syn' 0W-20 a VOA is below:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2384379#Post2384379

They also have a syn-blend version that is almost identical.
The full syn oil has a 177 VI and 176 for the syn' blend.

Of the Japanese OEM 0W-20 oils most of us prefer the Idemitsu made Mazda high moly 0W-20 (221 VI) and the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 (216 VI).

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Found this:

Quote:
Here is a quote from the great Coyote engine write-up from Mustang & Fast Fords:

Consideration was given to an external oil cooler, but ultimately it was decided not to penalize all Coyote buyers for the occasional antics of a miniscule fraction of owners. Oil temperature rises precipitously when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs.

And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.
Ed


But that is not what Ford has done.
A spec' 20wt oil is certainly more optimal for all but track use than using a heavier oil grade with more "headroom". With the oil cooler a heavier oil grade is not required or desired.
If Ford deserves any criticism, it's for not including the "optional" oil cooler as standard equipment.


I believe the BOSS 302 HAS the oil cooler and still spec's 5w50 FWIW.

Also, unless you are tracking oil temperatures, that's a pretty all encompassing statement saying that the 5w20 is more optimal than a heavier oil. Without an oil cooler (which it lacks) the oil temps may be all over the map.

I'm just agreeing with the Ford engineer.
The spec' 20wt oil is still recommended, not a heavier oil grade including for track use. If one does track their car an oil cooler is recommended; again not a heavier oil grade.
The only comment I would add is why the oil cooler isn't standard? Obviously the solution isn't a heavier oil grade as that won't prevent the activation of the "engine management systems" in the event of high oil temp's, only an oil cooler will do that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I'm just agreeing with the Ford engineer.
The spec' 20wt oil is still recommended, not a heavier oil grade including for track use. If one does track their car an oil cooler is recommended; again not a heavier oil grade.
The only comment I would add is why the oil cooler isn't standard? Obviously the solution isn't a heavier oil grade as that won't prevent the activation of the "engine management systems" in the event of high oil temp's, only an oil cooler will do that.


1. AFAIK, they can't recommend a heavier oil grade due to CAFE and CAFE regulations have no effect on Ford being able to recommend the fitment of an oil cooler. So they recommend an oil cooler.

2. Even if they could recommend a heavier grade, there would have to be some sort of ECM override to tell it that you had an oil that wasn't a 20-weight in the sump so that the thermal cutout point could be changed and the liability of implementing such a feature is simply too high.

3. The oil cooler, along with 5w50 and likely a different program in the ECM are all standard on the BOSS 302, a limited production car that will sell in volumes that are low enough that its effect on Ford's bottom line in terms of CAFE, just like with the Shelby, are insignificant.

4. If the oil cooler was all the car needed to be track ready like the BOSS 302, the BOSS 302 would spec 5w20. But it doesn't. The difference in power output between the two Coyote engines is only 24HP. There is no way that this difference requires an oil that is three grades heavier.

So what this means is that either:

A) Ford is incompetent and foolishly recommended 5w50 for their 444HP track-ready road car when it should obviously run on the far more optimal grade of 5w20.

OR

B) That 5w20 isn't optimal for the Coyote used in track conditions with or without an oil cooler and Ford has taken measures to ensure that there is adequate thermal protection in place on the volume seller Mustang GT so that they can get their CAFE credits and the cars won't blow up when tracked. The REAL enthusiasts will just buy the BOSS 302 instead.......

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I'm just agreeing with the Ford engineer.
The spec' 20wt oil is still recommended, not a heavier oil grade including for track use. If one does track their car an oil cooler is recommended; again not a heavier oil grade.
The only comment I would add is why the oil cooler isn't standard? Obviously the solution isn't a heavier oil grade as that won't prevent the activation of the "engine management systems" in the event of high oil temp's, only an oil cooler will do that.


1. AFAIK, they can't recommend a heavier oil grade due to CAFE and CAFE regulations have no effect on Ford being able to recommend the fitment of an oil cooler. So they recommend an oil cooler.

2. Even if they could recommend a heavier grade, there would have to be some sort of ECM override to tell it that you had an oil that wasn't a 20-weight in the sump so that the thermal cutout point could be changed and the liability of implementing such a feature is simply too high.

3. The oil cooler, along with 5w50 and likely a different program in the ECM are all standard on the BOSS 302, a limited production car that will sell in volumes that are low enough that its effect on Ford's bottom line in terms of CAFE, just like with the Shelby, are insignificant.

4. If the oil cooler was all the car needed to be track ready like the BOSS 302, the BOSS 302 would spec 5w20. But it doesn't. The difference in power output between the two Coyote engines is only 24HP. There is no way that this difference requires an oil that is three grades heavier.

So what this means is that either:

A) Ford is incompetent and foolishly recommended 5w50 for their 444HP track-ready road car when it should obviously run on the far more optimal grade of 5w20.

OR

B) That 5w20 isn't optimal for the Coyote used in track conditions with or without an oil cooler and Ford has taken measures to ensure that there is adequate thermal protection in place on the volume seller Mustang GT so that they can get their CAFE credits and the cars won't blow up when tracked. The REAL enthusiasts will just buy the BOSS 302 instead.......

Seems like there could be a lot of truth to what you've said.
#1 really peaked my interest. If there is any truth to that, which I believe there is, CAFE really tied their hands. Now before the TODT comes out and attacks me [Thin Oil Defense Team] let me state clearly that's JMO.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
NSX is not a lowly Honda but a premium Acura


Haha...of course you do know (I think you are using sarcasm) that the original NSX was sold in the RoW as a Honda.