Something Different - Artificial Graphene Brake Pads from China

[michael007]

@michael007 I found a technical article about the effects of graphene friction and wear if you're interested. I'm reading it now and trying to understand it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667056921000080

Just got a chance to try to understand it myself.

According to this study from India:
-Wear resistance increased with the addition of 15% graphene
-Graphene improved the friction coefficient compared to other materials but there's a point where too much will actually reduce it
-They say it's comparable to a commercial heavy duty pad. Thought it was interesting the friction coefficient looks to be a lot more stable compared to the commercial pad (CB in the graph)

 

[edyvw]

repost as the image was accidentally deleted

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Ain’t happening!

 

[michael007]

Ain’t happening!

This will be famous last words if ever someone else tries them or if they become mainstream one day.

Yes, the claims are substantial. Yes, China has a bad reputation but just like most of us on this earth - there's no such thing as all bad or all good.

These pads are unlike anything I've ever driven. Hope you get to try something similar in your lifetime, whether or not they're made in China as I know you love spirited driving and so you'd also appreciate the differences more than the average person.

There's a saying in the track world; brakes don't stop cars, tires do.

What Pew said always comes up in my mind while driving.

In the past, my butt used to clench when doing hard braking and now I'm cool as a cucumber.

Any kind of braking feels unbelievably smooth:
-Can ease into a stop so there's no jerk. If you stop in abrupt manner, it's fine. If you ride the brakes, it's also fine as there's no noise and no noticeable brake dust.
-Can tap on the brakes to slightly slow down (ex: before a tight turn) or to correct positioning and again, no jerk.
-Sometimes, it doesn't even feel like the car is braking even though the dial on the speedometer is decreasing.

Not only do these brakes stop my HR-V but in my opinion, they've transformed it.

 

[edyvw]

This will be famous last words if ever someone else tries them or if they become mainstream one day.

Yes, the claims are substantial. Yes, China has a bad reputation but just like most of us on this earth - there's no such thing as all bad or all good.

These pads are unlike anything I've ever driven. Hope you get to try something similar in your lifetime, whether or not they're made in China as I know you love spirited driving and so you'd also appreciate the differences more than the average person.



What Pew said always comes up in my mind while driving.

In the past, my butt used to clench when doing hard braking and now I'm cool as a cucumber.

Any kind of braking feels unbelievably smooth:
-Can ease into a stop so there's no jerk. If you stop in abrupt manner, it's fine. If you ride the brakes, it's also fine as there's no noise and no noticeable brake dust.
-Can tap on the brakes to slightly slow down (ex: before a tight turn) or to correct positioning and again, no jerk.
-Sometimes, it doesn't even feel like the car is braking even though the dial on the speedometer is decreasing.

Not only do these brakes stop my HR-V but in my opinion, they've transformed it.

I will skip it.
These materials are not anything new. Brembo, for example, just went out with a new compound on rotors and pads that is geared toward EV's. Press release, nothing bombastic. Mind you, we are talking company that provides F1 with brakes (AP Racing is owned by Brembo, so Brembo pretty much has a monopoly in F1), rally cars, NASCAR etc. etc. Pagid, ATE etc. provide various national championships and rally, teams, and yet, they do not have bright green BMW's with a bunch of videos claiming how they are best thing after sliced bread.
Companies do not get products like that out without extensive real-world experience (sport). So, while they might make pad that has certain advantages, I am wondering where the catch is. Having 4 and 7 years old, let me tell you, unless it is usual suspect, ain't going on a car.

 

[michael007]

I will skip it.
These materials are not anything new. Brembo, for example, just went out with a new compound on rotors and pads that is geared toward EV's. Press release, nothing bombastic. Mind you, we are talking company that provides F1 with brakes (AP Racing is owned by Brembo, so Brembo pretty much has a monopoly in F1), rally cars, NASCAR etc. etc. Pagid, ATE etc. provide various national championships and rally, teams, and yet, they do not have bright green BMW's with a bunch of videos claiming how they are best thing after sliced bread.
Companies do not get products like that out without extensive real-world experience (sport). So, while they might make pad that has certain advantages, I am wondering where the catch is. Having 4 and 7 years old, let me tell you, unless it is usual suspect, ain't going on a car.

Graphene like materials are new though or else there wouldn't be studies about them. Tried to research the Brembo Beyond EVs and at this point, there are 0 technical details out there. Once it's out, it's also not available unless you own an EV.

Showing off is a cultural thing in China. They're the reason for the big grills on BMWs so bright colours should be expected.

If it's ever confirmed the E90 certification is true, then I don't think your safety worries are justified but when it comes to kids - I get it.

 

[edyvw]

Graphene like materials are new though or else there wouldn't be studies about them. Tried to research the Brembo Beyond EVs and at this point, there are 0 technical details out there. Once it's out, it's also not available unless you own an EV.

Showing off is a cultural thing in China. They're the reason for the big grills on BMWs so bright colours should be expected.

If it's ever confirmed the E90 certification is true, then I don't think your safety worries are justified but when it comes to kids - I get it.

I am in the world where studies are job. Studies are done every day on aluminum or iron, and yet, we use iron since dawn of civilization. So, just because studies are done, doesn’t mean it is new greatest thing.

Brembo and similar companies don’t need to “show off” by making videos of bright green BMW’s. You turn on TV and you see their product on Ferrari F1.

 

[michael007]

I am in the world where studies are job. Studies are done every day on aluminum or iron, and yet, we use iron since dawn of civilization. So, just because studies are done, doesn’t mean it is new greatest thing.

Brembo and similar companies don’t need to “show off” by making videos of bright green BMW’s. You turn on TV and you see their product on Ferrari F1.

The thought I did a bad job of conveying was we've only recently seen studies on graphene brake pads because graphene wasn't an affordable material.

As everyone could tell from post #23, I think they're showing off because they really do have something out of the ordinary.

To compare a mainland Chinese company to something like Brembo isn't fair.

Because of political reasons, they'll never be the same.

From what I understand, government and private are intrinsically linked in China.

These pads were developed with universities there, something Brembo wouldn't do.

You also won't see Chinese pads partnering up with F1 because politically, it's not a good look.

What matter is if they were sent in for E90 testing which would demonstrate they meet a standard and if they perform significantly better than what's currently available on the market.

My amateur testing says yes to the latter and so it's a shame they're disregarded so easily as if it's safety you're most concerned about - you might be disregarding the safest option.

 

[edyvw]

As everyone could tell from post #23, I think they're showing off because they really do have something out of the ordinary.

Out of ordinary? Could be. That is not the question. Question is: what you give up?

Because of political reasons, they'll never be the same.

That is inherently a Chinese problem, not ours. We do not have issues buying Chinese products or having Chinese companies operating here (or in the West, for that matter).

From what I understand, government and private are intrinsically linked in China.

Yep. Quote above. Which is the biggest obstacle to innovation.

These pads were developed with universities there, something Brembo wouldn't do.

They do it all the time. It is a Western concept that Chinese companies copy until government thinks "independent" thinking went too far.

You also won't see Chinese pads partnering up with F1 because politically, it's not a good look.

So, they had all these years F1 for what? https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...ll-not-take-place.186HJrsCh027R2rl0eJnWG.html

In 2023 it is canceled due to COVID. But lets entertain your argument: they won't partner with F1 bcs. political reasons, but somehow they will come up with this super, uber brake pad concept? Based on history, ain't happening, but I would like to hear an opposite argument as long as it is not in the realm of wishful thinking.

What matter is if they were sent in for E90 testing which would demonstrate they meet a standard and if they perform significantly better than what's currently available on the market.

Who says they are significantly better? And what is that standard?

disregarded so easily

If they are what you state they are, the market will be folded with them.

 

[michael007]

Out of ordinary? Could be. That is not the question. Question is: what you give up?

I feel like they'd be exposed on the Chinese forums if there was something significant that was bad. There does seem to be a lack of hype which I thought was related to price but it could mean you're right.

So far the only thing I've noticed is the backing plate might not be galvanized.

They offer domestic buyers a 50k mile warranty so unless it's cheap for them to replace, the company seems confident they'll last.

They also post their insurance company's policy number on the product listing to try and convince their people to trust them instead of the popular international brands

Who says they are significantly better?

The marketing claims are bold if you're saying things like "it ain't happening" but compared to the pads I've driven, they feel and perform significantly better (braking power, smoothness, noise, dust). Drove the BMW this morning and it doesn't feel nice nor inspire confidence having to press further down on the brake pedal.

And what is that standard?

If I can find the contact info for the organization responsible for the R90 certification, I'll ask them to verify the registration number for the graphene pads.

Brembo mentions R90 for that new Beyond EV line so I assume it's a good standard

How are brake pads tested in conformity with ECE R90?

An R90 certificate may be issued only by a specialized certification body as all pad models are laboratory-tested and undergo a variety of stress tests. The following is measured during an ECE R90 certification procedure:

-pressure sensitivity,
-speed sensitivity,
-brake fade (loss of braking force due to high temperature).

The friction material tests last from 3 to 5 hours, much shorter than in the case of first-assembly parts. Mass produced brake pads undergo even more stringent tests, including temperature sensitivity, wear, noise levels or thermal conductivity. These tests may take up to several months to complete. The R90 standard is sufficient to determine the minimum parameters of brake pads required to obtain a safety guarantee. The friction material may not contain asbestos.

The test results may not deviate from the nominal values by more than 15%.
Source

That is inherently a Chinese problem, not ours. We do not have issues buying Chinese products or having Chinese companies operating here (or in the West, for that matter).

If they are what you state they are, the market will be folded with them.

Read some news about Tesla wanting to use lithium iron phosphate in their cars and this part of the article made me think graphene pads could have the same issue.

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk has pushed for the usage of lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries, produced mainly by Chinese vendors. He claimed in March 2023 that the vast bulk of the heavy lifting for electrification will be iron-based cells.

However, due to the political tensions between Washington and Beijing, having Chinese suppliers develop battery manufacturing in the United States is challenging."

You make excellent points though so there's a good chance I'm wrong (ex: Fuayo making car windows)

So, they had all these years F1 for what? https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...ll-not-take-place.186HJrsCh027R2rl0eJnWG.html

In 2023 it is canceled due to COVID. But lets entertain your argument: they won't partner with F1 bcs. political reasons, but somehow they will come up with this super, uber brake pad concept? Based on history, ain't happening, but I would like to hear an opposite argument as long as it is not in the realm of wishful thinking.

Agree with everything you've said here. I honestly don't follow F1 so had no idea about the Chinese grand prix but it makes financial sense.

You originally wrote about Brembo hardware on Ferrari F1 so when I said partner with them, I meant F1 having Chinese brake pad on their cars.

Just found out they use carbon fibre brakes so this part of the conversation is out of my depths...

 

[Greasymechtech]

If it is so great, the graphene, then we'll see EBC, Bendix, Raybestos, Wagner, TRW, Bosch, Akebono, Brembo, Ferodo, Hawk, ATE, Textar, Febi, etc....... all start jumping on the bandwagon.

I don't blindly trust the marketing or hyped stuff manufactured in certain areas.

I do see some interesting times with pad/shoe/clutch formulas..... carbon metallics, kevlar metallics, ceramic metallic, carbon ceramics.... hybrid formulas... hopefully optimized for whatever specifics.

I like a good hard pad with feedback and stopping power. I care not about dust, noise, or eternal pad/rotor longevity.

Problem with pads, or any product, is so many or use to OE, discount store, or $20 quickee brake specials and have never used a higher end pad. So, when they upgrade from mediocre to hohum, they think its the greatest thing in the world. Same can be said about tires, rotors, or other products.

 

[michael007]

Problem with pads, or any product, is so many or use to OE, discount store, or $20 quickee brake specials and have never used a higher end pad. So, when they upgrade from mediocre to hohum, they think its the greatest thing in the world. Same can be said about tires, rotors, or other products.

This is a good point, especially since the friction coefficient #s are similar to the carbotech 1521 or the Dixcel M.

I don't think I'm nuts though.

My mechanic friend borrowed the car to figure out CVT issues and texted after his first drive to say how good they were. He wants a set for his integra type r and the company is looking into it. Not sure if they can make custom orders if they don't have it ready made.

If it is so great, the graphene, then we'll see EBC, Bendix, Raybestos, Wagner, TRW, Bosch, Akebono, Brembo, Ferodo, Hawk, ATE, Textar, Febi, etc....... all start jumping on the bandwagon.

You posted this link about a UK company making graphene pads:
https://www.graphene-info.com/linney-tuning-develops-graphene-enhanced-brake-pads

This was in 2018 so why haven't we seen anything?

My guess is cost and source of the raw material.

In post #17, it shows how the Chinese company developed and patented the tech. It also says it has contracts with over 20 farms to get supplies.

Because they run the show from start to finish, they can make an end product that is somewhat affordable for the Chinese and affordable for us ($50/axle).

Other companies would probably have to pay a premium which might make it unaffordable for most consumers. If the Chinese don't want to share the compound or want a partnership making the pads, that too could be problematic.

Tesla as an example again:
"Western carmakers also want to reduce their dependence on materials from China. At the moment, China is the source of nearly all LFP batteries and the cathode powders required to make them, but several companies are trying to change that."
https://cen.acs.org/energy/energy-storage-/Lithium-iron-phosphate-comes-to-America/101/i4

If I can find the contact info for the organization responsible for the R90 certification, I'll ask them to verify the registration number for the graphene pads.

Found the contact info and filled out the form. If they reply all is well, it'll be a good sign the claims might be true.

 

[michael007]

Latest update in this goose chase:

I see in post #7, the stamp has Poland's coat of arms.

 

[Pew]

According to NIST; graphite is a commonly used material in brake pads. I'm not a brake engineer so I have no idea on all the formulas used.

So then I googled up graphene vs graphite; graphene is just one layer of graphite so perhaps the chinese company was trying to use a cooler sounding word. Overall though, I'm glad your experience is good so far. Their pad properties do closely indicate semi-metallic pad properties.

 

[michael007]

According to NIST; graphite is a commonly used material in brake pads. I'm not a brake engineer so I have no idea on all the formulas used.

So then I googled up graphene vs graphite; graphene is just one layer of graphite so perhaps the chinese company was trying to use a cooler sounding word.

Could be wrong but I don't think it's the cooler sounding word theory because they show graphite powder as a different material in the screenshot and one of the articles says

The researchers of Jiangsu Jinmaisui New Energy Technology Co., Ltd. discovered that graphene does not have to be obtained from graphite mines, and graphene can also be extracted from waste straw. The reporter saw from the vcr video brought by Xiong Wanjun that the workers first crushed the straw and put it into a carbonization furnace for smokeless incineration. After carbonization, graphitization, redox and other steps, artificial graphene was produced. The artificial graphene is then processed through mixing, pressing, sintering, heat treatment, strengthening treatment, machining and other processes to finally complete the production of automobile brake pads.

Compared with natural graphene, graphene brake pads made of straw have low cost, less environmental pollution, and abundant raw materials.

Their pad properties do closely indicate semi-metallic pad properties.

I imagine semi-metallic pads are noisier than ceramic.

These are whisper quiet, almost in an eerie manner.

Overall though, I'm glad your experience is good so far.

Same here as these were the 3rd choice when doing research. Didn't believe the marketing.

I'm probably going to change the second car to these even though it's brake pads aren't worn yet.

The higher friction rating feels safer. With ceramic pads, I'm driving more carefully and it feels depressing.

Problem with pads, or any product, is so many or use to OE, discount store, or $20 quickee brake specials and have never used a higher end pad. So, when they upgrade from mediocre to hohum, they think its the greatest thing in the world. Same can be said about tires, rotors, or other products.

Recently read a few posts on the forum recommending GG rated pads. If these are the real rating, maybe they are similar to others.

 

[Pew]

Could be wrong but I don't think it's the cooler sounding word theory because they show graphite powder as a different material in the screenshot and one of the articles says

I imagine semi-metallic pads are noisier than ceramic.

These are whisper quiet, almost in an eerie manner.

Looks like it's based off structure.:
Graphene has much of its high strength thanks to the 2-D layer structure of carbon atoms. In contrast, Graphite does not have interconnected crystal structure – nor 3-D lattice bonds such as a diamond.

Semi-Metallics can be loud, but it really depends on the type of pad. Track pads most definitely yes. Street pads, they try not to be but there's only so much stopping power they're willing to give up for noise.

 

[michael007]

Since the set on my Honda brought so much confidence, I got a second set for my other car - a 2009 BMW 535xi.

The cost was significantly higher so it seems like they charge more depending on the car brand. Before shipping to Canada, it was $166US for the set compared to $105 for the HR-V. Shipping was $47 and only took 18 days.

ECSTuning had the front rotors on 50% clearance and the rear rotors were previously bought from FCPEuro so I'll be able to take advantage of their lifetime warranty.

 

[zzyzzx]

Any ideas what, if anything this does to rotors?

 

[slo town]

Since the set on my Honda brought so much confidence, I got a second set for my other car - a 2009 BMW 535xi.

The cost was significantly higher so it seems like they charge more depending on the car brand. Before shipping to Canada, it was $166US for the set compared to $105 for the HR-V. Shipping was $47 and only took 18 days.

ECSTuning had the front rotors on 50% clearance and the rear rotors were previously bought from FCPEuro so I'll be able to take advantage of their lifetime warranty.

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The packaging of those Chinese is the most RIDICULOUS thing I've ever seen. If a western world country packaged brake pads like that the greenies would have them imprisoned. Talk about waste! Pads included.

In the bottom picture with the closeup of the pad it appears they cover the pad face with a piece of paper and then paint it gold. And gold brake pads.... It's the marketing style of a 10 year old kid who draws cars in his bedroom at night with a pencil and paper.

I didn't read every word but it seems their so called EC90 approval is suspect, right? I wouldn't use these pads on a golf cart.

Do you feed that famous Chinese dog food to your canine friend?

Good luck,

Scott

 

[michael007]

The packaging of those Chinese is the most RIDICULOUS thing I've ever seen. If a western world country packaged brake pads like that the greenies would have them imprisoned. Talk about waste! Pads included.

In the bottom picture with the closeup of the pad it appears they cover the pad face with a piece of paper and then paint it gold. And gold brake pads.... It's the marketing style of a 10 year old kid who draws cars in his bedroom at night with a pencil and paper.

I didn't read every word but it seems their so called EC90 approval is suspect, right? I wouldn't use these pads on a golf cart.

Do you feed that famous Chinese dog food to your canine friend?

Good luck,

Scott

I too was distrustful at first but I'm coming at this thread with studies and real life experience.

So far, I've put over 6,000 miles on them with my Honda and the braking power has been unbelievable. Going from 80mph to a quick stop feels smooth as hell.

Everyone else has been great in sharing their thoughts. I ask that you please try not to derail this thread.
(referring to the dog food part of your post - the rest is fair game)

Any ideas what, if anything this does to rotors?

It's supposed to be softer on rotors.

Will review the BMW once the break-in is completed. Might take a while as the car isn't driven as much as the Honda.