Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
If no wear difference between 5-20 and 0-20, where exactly would increased wear start?? 0-10? 0-5?


No such thing as a 0W-10 or 0W-5. Yet. We need to talk viscosity at temperature. You do know that a 5W-20 and 0W-20 are the same effective viscosity in use?

Depends on the engine really. Some may be fine with a 5 cSt@100°C oil!



Actually quite a few companies produce 0w10 and 0w5 oils. RP has a 0w10 and Redline has a 0w5 and a 0w2 There is even a uoa on this site of a member running 0w10 in a street car.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1387426

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08

Actually quite a few companies produce 0w10 and 0w5 oils. RP has a 0w10 and Redline has a 0w5 and a 0w2 There is even a uoa on this site of a member running 0w10 in a street car.


I know there are oils produced, called these numbers, so they exist. But what are the specifications? No SAE designated viscosity ranges.

You made my point perfectly in your link. What is the viscosity of the 0W-10 in your example? Indeed it's SAE 20!

 

[gfh77665]

Question remains: At what point is thin "too thin"? That point may be passed due to CAFE, and I guarantee you the Gov't doesn't give a flip if your $30,000 investment wears too much. Guarantee it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Question remains: At what point is thin "too thin"? That point may be passed due to CAFE, and I guarantee you the Gov't doesn't give a flip if your $30,000 investment wears too much. Guarantee it.


Great question, just be careful mentioning Gov't and CAFE in the same sentence. LOL You'll get yourself in hot water. LOL

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Question remains: At what point is thin "too thin"? That point may be passed due to CAFE, and I guarantee you the Gov't doesn't give a flip if your $30,000 investment wears too much. Guarantee it.


It's all a compromise. It's hard to draw a line and say, "okay, we're good above this, but we're bad below this." Because depending on who you are, your definition of "acceptable wear" will be different.

That said, I remember reading in a slide show that an HT/HS viscosity of 2.6 cP is kind of a "tipping point", where above which you don't see a lot of change in wear between small changes in HT/HS (like 2.7 vs. 2.8, etc), but below which you see a rapidly increasing rate of engine wear. I do believe that part of the SAE definition of a 20 grade oil is an HT/HS viscosity of at least 2.6 cP. In that slide show, it was noted that most engine manufacturers (but not all) recognize the 2.6 cP number as the lowest generally acceptable HT/HS value while balancing the requirement for reduced friction.

That is, above HT/HS values of 2.6, the small reduction in wear was not worth the increase in engine friction (which reduces fuel economy, increases heat, etc). And HT/HS values below 2.6 further reduced internal friction, but the increase in wear was not acceptable. At least that's how I read and interpreted it. I wish I could remember the source of that slide show. It was linked on here some years ago.

So it appears that the industry has at least attempted to draw that elusive line in the sand. And it appears to lie directly across the definition of 20 grade oils.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: donnyj08

Actually quite a few companies produce 0w10 and 0w5 oils. RP has a 0w10 and Redline has a 0w5 and a 0w2 There is even a uoa on this site of a member running 0w10 in a street car.


I know there are oils produced, called these numbers, so they exist. But what are the specifications? No SAE designated viscosity ranges.

You made my point perfectly in your link. What is the viscosity of the 0W-10 in your example? Indeed it's SAE 20!

The reason RP labels their XPR 0W-10 as being a sub 20wt oil is because the HTHSV is below 2.6cP, but not likely much below 2.6cP (maybe 2.5cP). Their XPR 5W-20 has a KV100 of 6.8cSt, only slightly heavier than the XPR 0W-10.
Additionally XPR 0W-10 has been around for quite a while and with a VI of only 140, this oil is not going to be much lighter than a typical 5W-20 dino. The current crop of high VI 0W-20 oils will be much lighter on start-up and will still be lighter at normal operating temp's.

All these light, sub 20wt low VI race oils have been rendered largely obsolete by the Japanese 200+ VI 0W-20 motor oils.
For example, why would you want to use Red Line 0W-5 (134 VI) when the Mazda high moly (675 ppm) 221 VI 0W-20 will likely be lighter on start-up plus you've got the protection of a much higher HTHSV 2.6cP oil?

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

I posted that link in response to one of BITOG's famously permanently banned members claiming that use of 5W20 and 0W20 in 3G TL's (J32A3)will cause excessive engine wear and results in dangerously low oil pressure.

There also is a video of Honda's chief chemist, Jeff Jetter discussing 0W20:

Jeff Jetter video

 

[Trav]

Quote:
My '03 Civic Si [@ almost 200K miles] really guzzles the 0W-20 I've tried. I'm giving a couple more brands a shot then it's onto 0W-30's.

I would put Mobil 1 0w40 in it in a minute. here's why.

Look at this chart..
Quote:
HONDA
Model
Accord 2.0, 2.4 DOHC i-VTEC
Year
2003-2008

1. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
2. Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30

I changed it from German but not the choices or their order.

This poses an interesting question.
It shows that without pressure to go thin for minuscule mileage benefits or to appease the environmental fruit cakes Honda has made the choice to go thicker.

Both these oils are readily available in any store and have been for a long time.
If Honda really believed thinner was better as they claim then why didn't they choose the 0w30 with an HTHS of 3.0 as their preferred first choice/option?
No. They went after the 5w30 with an HTHS of 3.58 as the preferred oil.

Like i said both are equally available, the 0w30 is no more difficult to find and has been on the market for a long time.
So availability isn't the issue.
Gasoline is $8+ a gallon so one would think that they would prefer the 0w30 for even the small improvements it may offer but they didn't.

With an HTHS of 3.8 Mobil 1 0w40 is very close to their preferred 5w30's HTHS of almost 3.6.

When Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc truly practice what the preach in the US and actually go thinner when the opportunity is readily available then maybe i will believe some of this thinner s better business.

Here is a real surprise.
Toyota last year spec'd 5w20 for their Prius Hybrid 2009 and up inc 2013.
Now even they have changed their minds and gone with a thick 5w30 not even 0w30 with 20w as just an alternative.
Quote:
TOYOTA

Modell
Prius 1.8 VVTi (Hybrid)
Year
2009-

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Motor (B) (2ZR-FXE)
1. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
2. Mobil Super 3000 Formula FE 5W-30
Alternative : 0W-20; 5W-20


This has to make one wonder why are manufacturers seemingly running away from thin oil when ts available?
I know i wonder but unfortunately some on BITOG and their followers have become so smitten with 20w they wont even tolerate any questioning of it.
Instead they post technical articles, puff pieces, desert testing and all sorts of things to support their position and beliefs.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Question remains: At what point is thin "too thin"?


I answered above.

Originally Posted By: Pablo

Depends on the engine really. Some may be fine with a 5 cSt@100°C oil!

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
My '03 Civic Si [@ almost 200K miles] really guzzles the 0W-20 I've tried. I'm giving a couple more brands a shot then it's onto 0W-30's.

I would put Mobil 1 0w40 in it in a minute. here's why.

Look at this chart..
Quote:
HONDA
Model
Accord 2.0, 2.4 DOHC i-VTEC
Year
2003-2008

1. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
2. Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30

I changed it from German but not the choices or their order.

This poses an interesting question.
It shows that without pressure to go thin for minuscule mileage benefits or to appease the environmental fruit cakes Honda has made the choice to go thicker.

Both these oils are readily available in any store and have been for a long time.
If Honda really believed thinner was better as they claim then why didn't they choose the 0w30 with an HTHS of 3.0 as their preferred first choice/option?
No. They went after the 5w30 with an HTHS of 3.58 as the preferred oil.

Like i said both are equally available, the 0w30 is no more difficult to find and has been on the market for a long time.
So availability isn't the issue.
Gasoline is $8+ a gallon so one would think that they would prefer the 0w30 for even the small improvements it may offer but they didn't.

With an HTHS of 3.8 Mobil 1 0w40 is very close to their preferred 5w30's HTHS of almost 3.6.

When Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc truly practice what the preach in the US and actually go thinner when the opportunity is readily available then maybe i will believe some of this thinner s better business.

Here is a real surprise.
Toyota last year spec'd 5w20 for their Prius Hybrid 2009 and up inc 2013.
Now even they have changed their minds and gone with a thick 5w30 not even 0w30 with 20w as just an alternative.
Quote:
TOYOTA

Modell
Prius 1.8 VVTi (Hybrid)
Year
2009-

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Motor (B) (2ZR-FXE)
1. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
2. Mobil Super 3000 Formula FE 5W-30
Alternative : 0W-20; 5W-20


This has to make one wonder why are manufacturers seemingly running away from thin oil when ts available?
I know i wonder but unfortunately some on BITOG and their followers have become so smitten with 20w they wont even tolerate any questioning of it.
Instead they post technical articles, puff pieces, desert testing and all sorts of things to support their position and beliefs.





Where did you pull this Prius info from?

 

[Trav]

Mobil Germany.
Edit: Add original.

Fabrikat
TOYOTA
Modell
Prius 1.8 VVTi (Hybrid)
Motor
B
Jahr
2009-
Neue SucheDrucken More DetailsBuy NowAnwendung Empfehlung Kapazität (l)
Motor (B) (2ZR-FXE)
1. Wahl Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 (a) 4.2
2. Wahl Mobil Super 3000 Formula FE 5W-30
Schaltgetriebe
Automatisches Getriebe Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung) 3.3
Differential Vom Getriebe
Kühlmittel Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung) 6.5
Bremsflüssigkeit Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung)

■Allgemeine Hinweise Hinweise verbergen ■Ölwechselabstände Ölwechselabstände verbergen Hinweise Schmiermittel/Kapazität
a. Alternative Empfehlungen: 0W-20; 5W-20

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Mobil Germany.
Edit: Add original.

Fabrikat
TOYOTA
Modell
Prius 1.8 VVTi (Hybrid)
Motor
B
Jahr
2009-
Neue SucheDrucken More DetailsBuy NowAnwendung Empfehlung Kapazität (l)
Motor (B) (2ZR-FXE)
1. Wahl Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 (a) 4.2
2. Wahl Mobil Super 3000 Formula FE 5W-30
Schaltgetriebe
Automatisches Getriebe Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung) 3.3
Differential Vom Getriebe
Kühlmittel Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung) 6.5
Bremsflüssigkeit Herstellervorschriften beachten (siehe Betriebsanleitung)

■Allgemeine Hinweise Hinweise verbergen ■Ölwechselabstände Ölwechselabstände verbergen Hinweise Schmiermittel/Kapazität
a. Alternative Empfehlungen: 0W-20; 5W-20


Thanks. I guess I'll pour some Mobil 1 5w-30 in mine at the next oil change, eh?

 

[Garak]

I think that's the A3/B3 European 5w-30, rather than the SN/GF-5 5w-30.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I think that's the A3/B3 European 5w-30, rather than the SN/GF-5 5w-30.

As the IT guy at work says, people are usually happy if you meet 'em halfway.

 

[Garak]

Hey, I'd have no qualms about using it. The issue is finding it. If I wanted something even resembling such an oil here, outside of the dealer, I'd be using GC, M1 0w-40, or RP's 0w-40 or 5w-40.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Hey, I'd have no qualms about using it. The issue is finding it. If I wanted something even resembling such an oil here, outside of the dealer, I'd be using GC, M1 0w-40, or RP's 0w-40 or 5w-40.


No stores carry Mobil 1 ESP up there? Pep Boys carries it here.

I guess Castrol SLX Professional OE 5w-30 is the only other oil I can think of. You'd have to get that one from a Castrol supplier or a VW dealer.

 

[MarkStock]

Trav

I find your efforts to look for differences quite amusing

I was thinking you must spend a lot of time looking for discrepancies especially when I saw how many Accords there were to choose from. Did you go through all of them.

Anyway, I went to Mobil's UK website and found the following for exactly the same engines

Same Accord - 0w20 recommended. ESP 0w30 also recommended. Nothing else

Same Prius - 0w20 recommended. 5w20 also recommended. Nothing else

On the German site I chose and Accord at random and as an alternative it put 0w20 and 0w30 before 5w30.

So what does that tell us? Only the order in which alternatives were entered into the database, or can you make a conspiracy out of that too?

I suggested in a previous post, that German conditions are different from US and Uk. Plenty of people say that German cars are built for sustained autobahn speeds and I have personally witnessed plenty of Germans revving hard in all gears like nothing I ever saw in the Uk.

I think its time to look for simpler answers

I also looked at castrol Australias website and they now have 20 weight oils that meet spec for Fords, Jaguars and Land Rover, including for a 5L V8. I find it interesting that these oils are not typically Gf5, even Gf3. Some are not even SM and the Ford spec number is earlier than the ones in the US. Also in the Uk the oils are earlier spec numbers for Ford

It really seems to me that driving assumptions, some engines, and oil tech is different across these countries and oil is being optimized

When you take a couple of engines out of thousands, focus in on just Germany, you are being very selective with the data you present. You are also choosing to present the info from the oil companies website without context from the owners manual and make a big deal about the order in which it is presented

I didn't chose 2 random engines from the UK. I chose the same 2 and used the same oil companies recommendations to show only 20 weight was chosen

I am sorry but by you being so selective about what you chose to present, it strongly suggests that you only looked for this data in support of your point, not because you were conducting a statistically meaningful review of the facts which would have involved an analysis of more engines in more countries

This is, I am sorry to say, how conspiracy theorists work

And before you accuse me of being a thin fanboy, the German oil weight recommendations make sense to me, just as do the UK having driven in both countries

 

[Shannow]

I'm interested in how driving in a country can teach you tribology...all ears here.

 

[MarkStock]

I'm more interested in how being skilled at analyzing facts in an imperfect situation can help find reasons rather than conspiracies

If you have facts that you can share rather than sniping then they are welcome

Of course, don't cherry pick just as I illustrated had been happening above

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
And before you accuse me of being a thin fanboy, the German oil weight recommendations make sense to me, just as do the UK having driven in both countries


OK, please explain how this statement is providing facts and data.

I have driven an (Oz designed) Camaro in Ca and Nevada, in temperatures from sub freezing to nearly typical on my local summers, and gleaned nothing of tribology form the experience.

Please explain how I could have learned more, as an engineer, who relies on statistics, and their relation to the mechanics of materials, I'm pretty keen to learn new tools.