Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[MarkStock]

Firstly I put in that comment because I didn't want the response to be that I am a thin fanboy. Maybe I erred by being conciliatory

Secondly, I said the differences in recommendations made sense to me which implies I am evaluating based on knowledge I have picked up. I can't pretend to have access to the wealth of knowledge that engineers have. I am making a judgement based on looking at as many facts as I can, recognizing when people have biased opinions, and making a judgement.

We do this in all walk of life. Even with all the engineering data, there are then assumptions being made about application and usage

So my conclusion, based on what many people have said, confirmed by what i have observed, was that in Germany there is more likelihood of high speed sustained driving on smaller engines than the US, and in the UK there is little high speed driving and the same goes for the US where engines are bigger

It seems to me the manufacturers are matching viscosity to the predominantly expected operating conditions. In Germany the 30 weight oil will be as thin on the autobahn as the 20 weight oil during the 20 min average journey that US suburban drivers make

These driving profiles and matching viscosities would on average have the potential to produce the least wear and best fuel economy in the respective countries

The German cars have bigger sumps and thicker oil. If my guess that that is not a coincidence with German autobahns is flawed, please enlighten me and others who seem to assume the same

You don't find it interesting that Travs engines spec 20 weight in the UK as well as the US?

There was a huge assertion that manufacturers were running away from 20 weight oil except in the US due to CAFE

As an engineer who relies on statistics what do you think of Trav basing his argument on 2 engines in Germany only?

 

[Trav]

Quote:

I find your efforts to look for differences quite amusing

What i find amusing is your trying to tear something apart that is right in front of your face in black and white and still wont admit its worth questioning.

I have said it before that England will probably go 20w like the US because of their slow driving conditions and relatively low operating temperatures.
Quote:
Plenty of people say that German cars are built for sustained autobahn speeds and I have personally witnessed plenty of Germans revving hard in all gears like nothing I ever saw in the Uk.

You think your the only one that has driven in other countries?
I have lived in 6 different countries 2 long term (over 5 years) and driven in more than 20 including the UK, China and North Africa. So what? That and 2 bucks may get me coffee.

Quote:
n the German site I chose and Accord at random and as an alternative it put 0w20 and 0w30 before 5w30.

What was the first choice not the alternative?
If You put in Honda US Of course its going to say 20w because Mobil uses manufactures specs for that country or area.
Just put in HONDA which is Honda specs with no area specific oil.
I cant find one HONDA or TOYOTA that specs 20w over 30w on the German site not one.
If you can post it.

This is the point.
If these companies recommend these oils to protect their engines there that simply means they are not comfortable running 20w.
Why?
Could it be because it cannot and will not protect these engines under the conditions they will be operating under? I believe so.

But wait..
Ford did desert testing for 250,000 miles on 20w according to you so it should be able to. You better call Toyota and Honda eh?
Quote:
You are also choosing to present the info from the oil companies website without context from the owners manual and make a big deal about the order in which it is presented

Now i know you are playing a game.
Do you really think Mobil pulls these recommendations out of their backside in any order they see fit?
They use FACTORY information in the order its presented.

You chose to blow right past the important question.
so i will give you another opportunity to answer it.
Quote:
Both these oils are readily available in any store and have been for a long time.
If Honda really believed thinner was better as they claim then why didn't they choose the 0w30 with an HTHS of 3.0 as their preferred first choice/option?
No. They went after the 5w30 with an HTHS of 3.58 as the preferred oil.

Like i said both are equally available, the 0w30 is no more difficult to find and has been on the market for a long time.
So availability isn't the issue.
Gasoline is $8+ a gallon so one would think that they would prefer the 0w30 for even the small improvements it may offer but they didn't.

You answer that question with a real answer not some desert test or puff piece and we might get somewhere.

I am looking forward to debating one talking point after the other.

Anyone reading this go to Mobil1.de and click on
Schmierstoffwegweiser. Just use Honda or Toyota not Honda or Toyota US as this will give you just what the US manual will give you, ditto Chrysler/Jeep.
You may need to forget the model name and just go with the engine size as they are used in different body styles.

 

[MarkStock]

Trav

In your anger I think you've missed the point

You've been blaming CAFE

They don't have CAFE in the UK

And the point about the order in which alternatives were listed was this

You made a point that the 0w was listed after the 5w so it was some sort of order of preference

I found a case (yes a Honda case like you said) where 0w was mentioned first.

I also mentioned that

UK had no 30 weight alternative for Toyota. Germany did have 20 weight as an alternative

Australia has 20 weight recommended now for Ford Jag Land Rover

You've made arguments that manufacturers are running away from 20 weight

You gave just 2 examples only in Germany, 1 of which had 20 wright as an alternative

I agree with you that in Germany, 30 generally looks more appropriate

But manufacturers aren't running away from 20 while being pushed in the US to 20 by CAFE without realistic engineering as they make the switch

You're simply selectively choosing limited data points (quite poorly) to support your biases

 

[Trav]

Anger? No not at all.
Quote:
I found a case (yes a Honda case like you said) where 0w was mentioned first.

But not a 20w it was a 0w30. And then only a few cases. Why not a 20w first and 30w as an alternative?
You missed the point again by a country mile.
If 0w30 was the first choice then obviously the engine is fine with that oil. On the other hand the ones that get 5w30 first work best with the higher viscosity oils.
This is far different than Toyota, Ford and Honda USA using 20w from Death Valley to the arctic circle in northern Alaska in everything not turbocharged isn't it.
Isn't this what Frank was getting at in the other thread that you went after him for?
Quote:
You've been blaming CAFE

They don't have CAFE in the UK


Where did i mention CAFE in this piece?
I have said many times 20w in Europe is considered an oil for hybrids generally and its no surprise the the UK will offer a 20w in other models because of the low stress driving conditions and lower ambient temp than on the continent.
In that climate under those conditions it may well be optimal in some engines.
Quote:
Over England the mean annual temperature at low altitudes varies from about 8.5 °C to 11 °C, with the highest values occurring around or near to the coasts of Cornwall (in the south west).

Winter temperatures average 4.4 °C (40 °F )

Summer temperatures average about 15.6 °C (60 °F ()

So say freezing 32f to 75f temps, 70Mph speed limit (strictly enforced with speed cameras) hardly harsh conditions on any oil.
Quote:
You've made arguments that manufacturers are running away from 20 weight

Last year the Prius in Germany was 5w20 or 0w20 only now its 5w30 and one with an HTHS of 3.58 at that.
You wouldn't call that running away from 20w?

Wait now. When Ford back spec'd engines to 20w then it was optimal and now when Toyota changes the spec for the Prius in Germany its not because its going to a higher viscosity not lighter?

As far as Australia goes i will let one of the guys that live there deal with your comments i don't know about what they have or what they spec.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

email Honda's chief chemist, Jeff Jetter, and ask him:

[email protected]

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Trav
If these companies recommend these oils to protect their engines there that simply means they are not comfortable running 20w.
Why?
Could it be because it cannot and will not protect these engines under the conditions they will be operating under? I believe so.


I think you both agree on that point. And I do as well. Even in the US, Honda specifies 5W-30 for it's high-revving K24s and 5W-20 for its low-revving K24s. Same engine architecture, same market, same climate, etc. But there's a difference in expected use.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Do you really think Mobil pulls these recommendations out of their backside in any order they see fit?
They use FACTORY information in the order its presented.


There are errors in their recommendations. On Mobil 1's US site, it recommends 5W-30 for a 2007 Chrysler Town & Country. This is patently wrong. The oil fill cap and the owner's manual for a 2007 Town & Country clearly call for 5W-20. 5W-20 is the factory fill. The owner's manual, in fact, doesn't even allow for the use of an oil other than 5W-20.

They also have a disclaimer on their site:

Quote:
This information is derived from multiple sources including information owned by MOTOR Information Systems. Copyright © 2012 by MOTOR Information Systems, a division of Hearst Business Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.


I'd agree with the notion that the owner's manual or engine oil fill cap will be the resources of highest accuracy.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
This information is derived from multiple sources including information owned by MOTOR Information Systems. Copyright © 2012 by MOTOR Information Systems, a division of Hearst Business Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.

No such disclaimer on the German site.
In fact the ask for the manufactures codes from you registration if the car is registered in Germany.

Not infallible certainly but this site has a good reliability record.

 

[MarkStock]

Trav, I think the truth is we are closer to agreeing than you think.

The thin fanboys say "As thin as possible, as thick as necessary".

This inherently means one needs to consider the application.

But let me give you an example why refering to the manufacturer is important.

My 2007 Lexus specified 5w30. Only when I went back and read the section carefully, did I notice that qualification that if high loads or high speeds are expected, then a higher viscosity might be required. That's unlikely to be on an oil website.

On the example you gave which said Toyota went from 0w20 to a 3.5+ HTHS 5w30, did Toyota recommend that oil specifically or was it simply a grade that they recommended and an available grade in that country which Mobil matched up on their website?

You take the information from Mobil Germany and turn it into proof that Toyota is running away from 20 weight oil. That's just supposition on your part. If the engineers changed their mind and went from 20 weight to 30 weight, it's hardly running away. They just adjusted their optimum recommendation for that country. They still have 20 weight as an alternative.

If they were running away, 20 weight would not even be an alternative.

I told you that Castrol in Australia said it had developed 5w20 in conjunction with Ford (FPV to be precise) and Jaguar and Land Rover for a 5L V8.

I got that information from Castrol's Australia website, indeed it's easily obtainable product data sheets. You say an oil companies website is accurate, but then you say you have to defer to posters from Australia before you consider my statement to be true. I feel slightly offended you don't believe me, but for your own part, how is it you can pick information from the Mobil Germany website but not Castrol Australia's website?

It's because you're only looking for information to prove some point you are making.

I'm also a little disappointed that you criticize anybody who points our flaws in your arguments. For example:

You were previously saying that the US was the only country going with 20 weight oil because of CAFE and they were compromising engine durability while the rest of the world wasn't. When it is pointed out to you that the UK is also, then you say that's because the UK has similar demands on it's engine as the US. Logically therefore, without any CAFE pressure, you would have to accept that the UK is not putting engine durability at risk. And if the UK and US have similar driving conditions, then you would also have to admit the US is not putting engine durability at risk.

I'm going to remove myself from these conversations. There are so many instances where you're unreasonably molding or misrepresenting information to support your viewpoint and then obfuscating when it's pointed out to you, that it's gotten really tiring and ultimately pointless to have a conversation with you.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Trav

I find your efforts to look for differences quite amusing

I was thinking you must spend a lot of time looking for discrepancies especially when I saw how many Accords there were to choose from. Did you go through all of them.

Anyway, I went to Mobil's UK website and found the following for exactly the same engines

Same Accord - 0w20 recommended. ESP 0w30 also recommended. Nothing else

Same Prius - 0w20 recommended. 5w20 also recommended. Nothing else

On the German site I chose and Accord at random and as an alternative it put 0w20 and 0w30 before 5w30.

So what does that tell us? Only the order in which alternatives were entered into the database, or can you make a conspiracy out of that too?

I suggested in a previous post, that German conditions are different from US and Uk. Plenty of people say that German cars are built for sustained autobahn speeds and I have personally witnessed plenty of Germans revving hard in all gears like nothing I ever saw in the Uk.

I think its time to look for simpler answers

I also looked at castrol Australias website and they now have 20 weight oils that meet spec for Fords, Jaguars and Land Rover, including for a 5L V8. I find it interesting that these oils are not typically Gf5, even Gf3. Some are not even SM and the Ford spec number is earlier than the ones in the US. Also in the Uk the oils are earlier spec numbers for Ford

It really seems to me that driving assumptions, some engines, and oil tech is different across these countries and oil is being optimized

When you take a couple of engines out of thousands, focus in on just Germany, you are being very selective with the data you present. You are also choosing to present the info from the oil companies website without context from the owners manual and make a big deal about the order in which it is presented

I didn't chose 2 random engines from the UK. I chose the same 2 and used the same oil companies recommendations to show only 20 weight was chosen

I am sorry but by you being so selective about what you chose to present, it strongly suggests that you only looked for this data in support of your point, not because you were conducting a statistically meaningful review of the facts which would have involved an analysis of more engines in more countries

This is, I am sorry to say, how conspiracy theorists work

And before you accuse me of being a thin fanboy, the German oil weight recommendations make sense to me, just as do the UK having driven in both countries

Good work Mark.
The indisputable fact remains, if an OEM spec's a 0W-20 oil grade, at normal operating temp's there will be a large viscosity safety margin remaining to deal with higher than normal oil temp's, fuel dilution and possible oil shear. Where the vehicle is located on the planet isn't going to change that nor will alternate heavier oil grades in some jurisdictions.
Is there a value in listing alternate oil grades? I would think so, to deal will grade availability and some extreme use applications.
Even in the North American Toyota handbook where a 0W-20 is specified, it mentions the next higher oil grade may be more suitable for constant high speed driving. It's no secret that constant high rev's can dramatically increase oil consumption with some engines so a heavier oil grade can help if that's the usage the vehicle is being subjected to on a regular basis.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

More discussion. Interesting statements on how 0W20 produces less wear in the engines designed for it. Comments? (Did they get the bearing clearance figure wrong by a decimal? I'm thinking it should be 0.00095")

Less wear -- Engine design, materials and manufacturing processes have changed.
• Engines are now designed with larger bearing surfaces, which spread the load and lowers PSI..
• The load bearing surfaces are smoother (mirror like) and less porous than in older engines. Therefore, thinner oils can keep moving surfaces apart without excessive wear.
• Clearances have been reduced to the point that thicker oils can not get where needed. The Honda Civic Hybrid and Insight have bearing clearances of just 0.0095 inches.
• At start up, thinner oils can get where needed faster thus reducing wear. A Ford study
concluded that 75% of wear occurs at start up.
• Hybrid cars that cycle between battery and gasoline engine are constantly starting, stopping and
jumping to high speed. 0W-20 is needed in this environment.

OW20 time has come

 

[CATERHAM]

Yes bubbajoe, the Honda bearing clearance should be 0.00095", or one thou' not 9.5 thou' otherwise we'ed have to import some of that 40-70 oil from OZ!

And welcome to BITOG!

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Thanks for the welcome!

Their 3rd bullet brings up a question for me:

"Clearances have been reduced to the point that thicker oils can not get where needed..."

I ran M1 0W40 for a single 11K interval (all other fills have been 5W20 @ normal MID intervals, ~7.5K) in my Acura TL J32A3 (2004, 130K miles) and the UOA showed a proportionally higher iron content for the 0W40 drain vs the 2 5W20 drains before and after the 0W40 drain(32 vs 16 and 17). I realize that one UOA aberration may not mean anything, but is there a chance that 0W40 may be too thick to run in this engine?

Link to UOA's

It was just an experiment mostly to see what happened to MPG with 0W40 (lost about 1 MPG) and I doubt I'll run it again, but after reading that blurb about thick oil and reduced clearances, it got me to wondering...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Thanks for the welcome!

Their 3rd bullet brings up a question for me:

"Clearances have been reduced to the point that thicker oils can not get where needed..."

I ran M1 0W40 for a single 11K interval (all other fills have been 5W20 @ normal MID intervals, ~7.5K) in my Acura TL J32A3 (2004, 130K miles) and the UOA showed a proportionally higher iron content for the 0W40 drain vs the 2 5W20 drains before and after the 0W40 drain(32 vs 16 and 17). I realize that one UOA aberration may not mean anything, but is there a chance that 0W40 may be too thick to run in this engine?

It was just an experiment mostly to see what happened to MPG with 0W40 (lost about 1 MPG) and I doubt I'll run it again, but after reading that blurb about thick oil and reduced clearances, it got me to wondering...


If that were true, engines operated in cold climates even on 0w20 would suffer epic failure. The difference between grades at your average balmy ambient in Florida is nothing compared to the difference in the same grade going from 40C to -20C.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
then you would also have to admit the US is not putting engine durability at risk.

Absolutely not! Does the UK have any areas as hot a Death Valley or as cold as northern Alaska? No
For that climate it may do fine in some engines.

If you think you can run 0w20 in Death Valley in the summer and northern Alaska in Jan and have optimal engine protection with the same oil then IMHO your sadly mistaken.
But thats what Ford recommends doesn't it or do they offer an alternative?
Quote:
There are so many instances where you're unreasonably molding or misrepresenting information to support your viewpoint and then obfuscating when it's pointed out to you, that it's gotten really tiring and ultimately pointless to have a conversation with you.

Look in the mirror.
After only 400 or so post since August or Sept under this name anyway you have come across like an expert on anything and everything and made sure you buddied up to Caterham hoping that parroting his mantra will get you some brownie points.
Well i guess it did he's here in support blowing smoke and gleefully lathering praise on one of his fans.

You have insulted members here that are usually real calm guys and have turned them nasty towards you (that is a huge understatement), you even took a cheap shot a Germans for obvious reasons.
Blasphemy against the engineering Gods will get you nowhere.

Yep "Well done Mark"!

I think i have presented good points in this thread and any posters who care to look for themselves can draw their own conclusions.
Quote:
think the truth is we are closer to agreeing than you think.

Don't bet on it, We are not even in the same universe.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112

• Clearances have been reduced to the point that thicker oils can not get where needed. The Honda Civic Hybrid and Insight have bearing clearances of just 0.0095 inches.
• At start up, thinner oils can get where needed faster thus reducing wear. A Ford study
concluded that 75% of wear occurs at start up.


The first point quoted is not entirely true. Those new "tight" clearances handily overlap the minimum specifications for my 1941 John Deere and 1959 Alfa Romeo, when adjusted for journal diameter. Better machining and surface finishes have allowed manufacturers to build closer and more consistently near minimum required clearances than in the past.

Warmup is far more than the time it takes the oil to circulate. It is the ~20 minutes that it takes for all the working parts of the engine to reach equilibrium at operating temperature.

Ed

 

[Shannow]

Note that the increases in projected area and reduction in clearances are coming AFTER widespread use of 20W, i.e. they are in response to the useage, not the driver.

These measures improve bearing safety margin when operating on these oils, and...increase drag.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Note that the increases in projected area and reduction in clearances are coming AFTER widespread use of 20W, i.e. they are in response to the useage, not the driver.

Or in anticipation of even lighter oils to come; namely, the 0W-16 grade.

 

[Oil Changer]

Originally Posted By: Trav
If you think you can run 0w20 in Death Valley in the summer and northern Alaska in Jan and have optimal engine protection with the same oil then IMHO your sadly mistaken.
But thats what Ford recommends doesn't it or do they offer an alternative?


Really? Sadly mistaken? You are the one that is sadly mistaken. I ran my F-150 on dino 5W-20 under almost the exact conditions you described; towing a boat to boot. Guess what? ZERO engine issues. Tire problems? Oh yeah. Transmission problems? Just starting to when I traded it in. The engine ran like a clock. Dino 5W-20 Trav. No problems.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Note that the increases in projected area and reduction in clearances are coming AFTER widespread use of 20W, i.e. they are in response to the useage, not the driver.

These measures improve bearing safety margin when operating on these oils, and...increase drag.


That statement would be incorrect for Honda. According to Jetter, most Honda engines have been designed to run on 0W20 or lower since 2001.

And in Japan, Honda is using 0W10 as factory fill, including some models imported to the U.S., according to Jetter.

 

[Clevy]

Well death valley would be a severe operating condition and in my mind warrant the next grade thicker and Alaska has the same winters Saskatchewan does,except sask's winter may be a bit shorter and again in my mind would warrant a 0w-xx.
I agree with trav that a one size fits all oil really doesn't work because everyone drives differently under different weather conditions but one size fits most would possibly apply though.