Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Well death valley would be a severe operating condition and in my mind warrant the next grade thicker and Alaska has the same winters Saskatchewan does,except sask's winter may be a bit shorter and again in my mind would warrant a 0w-xx.
I agree with trav that a one size fits all oil really doesn't work because everyone drives differently under different weather conditions but one size fits most would possibly apply though.


I've been saying for days one size doesn't fit all. I'm glad I'm in good company. Honestly what harm [just for the sake of discussion because this horse was beaten to death] would there be giving a choice of a 20 grade oil for winter use, and a 30 grade oil for summer use? With a graph showing the temp ranges both grades would be good for?

 

[Trav]

Reading trouble Oil Changer?
I said..
Quote:
and have optimal engine protection with the same oil

Quote:
I ran my F-150 on dino 5W-20 under almost the exact conditions you described; towing a boat to boot.

Wait a minute now in another thread you said..
Quote:
If I can drive my CR-V below sea level through Louisiana, across the Rockies, through Texas and deserts (including Death Valley) up the PCH to Alaska, cut across Canada and back to Michigan while towing a trailer rated at or less than what my OM specifies all the while using 0W-20, preserving my warranty and not experiencing any engine oil related failure or any excessive wear as depicted by oil analysis:


Then when Demarpaint asked you..
Quote:
Wow you say you can do all that driving and towing, it would be a nice trip. Have you done it?

You answered..
Quote:
No, I have not taken a trip as I described in the CR-V, but have done similar trips in other vehicles w/o engine oil related issues.

I have towed a boat FREQUENTLY back in forth through through Death Valley in the summer w/o issue using dino 5W-20. No need to go heavier.

So which is it? Similar? You either drove through Death Valley to Alaska or you didn't.
How do you know the 20w was optimal if you actually took this trip? Because the engine didn't blow? A good UOA? Come on now Buick GN had a total engine failure and his UOA was great.

Something is wrong with this trip business. You don't seem to able to keep your story straight.

 

[Garak]

No stores carry Mobil 1 ESP up there? Pep Boys carries it here./quote]

I haven't come across it. I suspect the dealers get it, and I probably would be able to get it from the Imperial Oil distributor. I guess there just aren't enough European car drivers who do their own maintenance to justify stocking it.

Now, if you want a fairly large variety of HDEOs, you can get that here.

 

[Oil Changer]

Now who has the reading trouble, Trav?

That quote about the CR-V was a hypothetical. The F-150 I did for real. Dino 5W-20 proved to be optimal for that truck towing my boat through the outskirts of Death Valley and driving through Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota (all of which could be argued have harsher winter climes than Alaska) across Michigan's Upper Penninsula and down to visit family at Christmas. [I lived in SoCal when I took those trips in the F-150. I have since migrated back to my birth-State.The F-150 was traded off.]

All on dino 5W-20. ZERO engine problems. My story is quite honest. I would have no problems taking the same trip with the CR-V (sans the heavy boat that would be over my max GVWR/GCVWR) using he same 0W-20 that's in it now.

And no, I never towed the boat from SoCal to Detroit but would have towed a heavy trailer if need be with the 5W-20 in the sump.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Reading trouble Oil Changer?
I said..
Quote:
and have optimal engine protection with the same oil

Quote:
I ran my F-150 on dino 5W-20 under almost the exact conditions you described; towing a boat to boot.

Wait a minute now in another thread you said..
Quote:
If I can drive my CR-V below sea level through Louisiana, across the Rockies, through Texas and deserts (including Death Valley) up the PCH to Alaska, cut across Canada and back to Michigan while towing a trailer rated at or less than what my OM specifies all the while using 0W-20, preserving my warranty and not experiencing any engine oil related failure or any excessive wear as depicted by oil analysis:


Then when Demarpaint asked you..
Quote:
Wow you say you can do all that driving and towing, it would be a nice trip. Have you done it?

You answered..
Quote:
No, I have not taken a trip as I described in the CR-V, but have done similar trips in other vehicles w/o engine oil related issues.

I have towed a boat FREQUENTLY back in forth through through Death Valley in the summer w/o issue using dino 5W-20. No need to go heavier.

So which is it? Similar? You either drove through Death Valley to Alaska or you didn't.
How do you know the 20w was optimal if you actually took this trip? Because the engine didn't blow? A good UOA? Come on now Buick GN had a total engine failure and his UOA was great.

Something is wrong with this trip business. You don't seem to able to keep your story straight.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Are Trav and Buick GN brothers?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Note that the increases in projected area and reduction in clearances are coming AFTER widespread use of 20W, i.e. they are in response to the useage, not the driver.

These measures improve bearing safety margin when operating on these oils, and...increase drag.


That statement would be incorrect for Honda. According to Jetter, most Honda engines have been designed to run on 0W20 or lower since 2001.

And in Japan, Honda is using 0W10 as factory fill, including some models imported to the U.S., according to Jetter.

Yes Jeff Jetter has referred to the sub 0W-20 oil they have been using in Japan for the past number of years as "0W-10" but the product actually has no SAE designation, and is marketed and labelled simply as "Ultra Green" Motor oil. Here's a picture of the actual can:
http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-parts/oil/

I actually started a thread on the oil in Jan/2010:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1734249&page=1

The SAE have finally approved a sub 20wt oil grade with the HTHSV below 2.6cP and it will be officially designated SAE 16.
We should start seeing it in 2014.

 

[Oil Changer]

Hahahahahaha...

demarpaint's post is a keeper. Boy didn't he change!

Hahahahahaha...

"Thinner oils are the wave of the future, and the engine design team knows what is best for their engines."

Hahahahahaha...

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Honda makes more internal combustion engines than anyone else in the world, automotive small and marine combined. I can't believe people around here are so quick to question their engineering. Then again, I guess once you hit 200 posts on an oil forum you've learned everything there is to know.

I wouldn't be too quick to buy an automatic transmission from them, but if it has a spark plug they know more about it than we do.


I'm not sure on the engine stats, but you learn something new everyday. If Honda designed the engine, and spec'd an oil for the engine, then that would be the oil I use. If Honda tested the engine to run on 0W10, and the oil is available I'd use it with no hesitation. Thinner oils are the wave of the future, and the engine design team knows what is best for their engines. Now because it works in the new Hondas doesn't mean it will work in an older one. I'd stick to what the mfg suggested for the engine, if it is back spec'd I'd try that oil.

Funny MMO came up in this thread, seems they're ahead of the times. LOL

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Honestly what harm [just for the sake of discussion because this horse was beaten to death] would there be giving a choice of a 20 grade oil for winter use, and a 30 grade oil for summer use? With a graph showing the temp ranges both grades would be good for?


It creates unnecessary confusion for the vehicle owner. Why present a choice when:

1) It really doesn't matter to the engine anyway;
2) Most people don't read the owner's manual anyway;
3) Most people don't understand what an oil grade is (and think the number on the bottle is the viscosity); and,
4) The customer looks at the choices, doesn't understand the difference, and gets the feeling that the automaker is making it more difficult than necessary?

Most owners feel comfort in seeing ONE graph, ONE choice...essentially being directed what to do. Those of us who question the recommendation, or at least bandy about the reasons why a recommendation was made, are in the overwhelming minority.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Jeff Jetter

The same Jeff Jetter that wrote that puff piece?
Pushing that misinformation about 20w being used in Europe since 2001 without stating it was only for hybrids.
Theres a reliable source.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Honestly what harm [just for the sake of discussion because this horse was beaten to death] would there be giving a choice of a 20 grade oil for winter use, and a 30 grade oil for summer use? With a graph showing the temp ranges both grades would be good for?


It creates unnecessary confusion for the vehicle owner. Why present a choice when:

1) It really doesn't matter to the engine anyway;
2) Most people don't read the owner's manual anyway;
3) Most people don't understand what an oil grade is (and think the number on the bottle is the viscosity); and,
4) The customer looks at the choices, doesn't understand the difference, and gets the feeling that the automaker is making it more difficult than necessary?

Most owners feel comfort in seeing ONE graph, ONE choice...essentially being directed what to do. Those of us who question the recommendation, or at least bandy about the reasons why a recommendation was made, are in the overwhelming minority.


Maybe its a generation thing, or an American thing? Seems the rest of the world doesn't have these issues. LOL Maybe most people don't know and don't care? Seeing the condition of several used cars we took for trade that could be very true, sadly. Maybe you're onto something.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Jeff Jetter

The same Jeff Jetter that wrote that puff piece?
Pushing that misinformation about 20w being used in Europe since 2001 without stating it was only for hybrids.
Theres a reliable source.

Why don't you just email him and tell him he's not a reliable source and you are? I'd love to hear his response to your complaint.

[email protected]

 

[Trav]

So the engine didn't blow so what does that prove?
I wouldn't expect it to but there is no way you can say how much wear or not took place without a tear down.

I have no problem reading. Your trips seem a bit too convenient and fit Demarpaints scenario too perfectly but if you said you did it ok.
So now it was in the lower 48 in winter. You didn't drive this vehicle in Death Valley in the summer and northern Alaska in the winter on 20w did you.
Quote:
Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota (all of which could be argued have harsher winter climes than Alaska)

You want to rethink that?
Northern Alaska is the coldest place in the US.
Quote:
Actually, the record for Alaska (and the entire U.S. for that matter) was set in 1971 at Prospect Creek in the northern interior: a bone-chilling -80°F! When compared to high readings near 90°, Alaska's temperature range is an astonishing 170°.


you need to get your fact straight.
There was no way you subjected that oil to the conditions i described and i can prove it.
Quit while your ahead.

 

[Trav]

10 post and going after a long time member. Bubba?
Unless you are a banned member returning you have no idea about me or my background.
I never proclaimed to be an expert but i know for a fact that 20w was and is still for the most part sold in Europe as a hybrid grade.
How do i know i was there working on vehicles every day for decades and saw and used probably every oil on the shelf in one car or another.
Oh and i worked on a few hybrids during this time.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Originally Posted By: Trav
10 post and going after a long time member. Bubba?
Unless you are a banned member returning you have no idea about me or my background.
I never proclaimed to be an expert but i know for a fact that 20w was and is still for the most part sold in Europe as a hybrid grade.
How do i know i was there working on vehicles every day for decades and saw and used probably every oil on the shelf in one car or another.
Oh and i worked on a few hybrids during this time.


Wow, thinks he knows more than the Honda chief chemist, and thin skinned also. Are you sure you're not Buick GN's cousin?

And no, I've never been on BITOG before...

Like others have stated, I'd love to see anything from a Honda manual (European) that proves your claims of hybrids only.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Like others have stated

Go away troll.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Are you sure you're not Buick GN's cousin?

And no, I've never been on BITOG before...



Never been here, but know Mr Buick? I call doo dee on that. Sounds like the banned coming back to troll.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Are you sure you're not Buick GN's cousin?

And no, I've never been on BITOG before...



Never been here, but know Mr Buick? I call doo dee on that. Sounds like the banned coming back to troll.


Yup, smells a bit funny to me too.......

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Are you sure you're not Buick GN's cousin?

And no, I've never been on BITOG before...



Never been here, but know Mr Buick? I call doo dee on that. Sounds like the banned coming back to troll.



Yup, smells a bit funny to me too.......

He is Buick GN. Don't feed the troll

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: Trav
The same Jeff Jetter that wrote that puff piece?
Pushing that misinformation about 20w being used in Europe since 2001 without stating it was only for hybrids.
Theres a reliable source.

Why don't you just email him and tell him he's not a reliable source and you are? I'd love to hear his response to your complaint.

[email protected]

Yes, please post what Jeff has to say. It would be polite to invite him into the conversation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: Trav
10 post and going after a long time member. Bubba?
Unless you are a banned member returning you have no idea about me or my background.
I never proclaimed to be an expert but i know for a fact that 20w was and is still for the most part sold in Europe as a hybrid grade.
How do i know i was there working on vehicles every day for decades and saw and used probably every oil on the shelf in one car or another.
Oh and i worked on a few hybrids during this time.


Wow, thinks he knows more than the Honda chief chemist, and thin skinned also. Are you sure you're not Buick GN's cousin?

And no, I've never been on BITOG before...

Like others have stated, I'd love to see anything from a Honda manual (European) that proves your claims of hybrids only.


I don't think he's saying he knows more than the individual in question. He's simply questioning the motives behind what is being pushed here.

And, if you'd take a look at Jeff's credentials, he is not Honda's chief chemist. He is the Principal Chemist for
Honda R&D Americas, Inc. This means his focus is Honda HERE, not in Europe. Perhaps Honda Europe's principle Chemist would have a different slant on things

Usage profile plays a KEY role here and Trav is not out of line for pointing that out or focusing on it. While some of you may not agree with his approach, I certainly applaud him for asking the question, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how aggressively he is being responded to on this topic.