Good Article On Glock

[Robenstein]

The Caracal, had it not possessed some major safety issues seemed like a decent gun with some interesting features. I know the head designer, a former Glock employee, is also responsible for the Steyr M series of guns which I adore. But I guess even the best designers make a lemon here and there...Stoner had his with the other gun you mentioned, the Colt AA2000

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I'm not poking the bear here... but honestly- what separates a Glock from say, an M&P? Some minor ergos and a little something here and there? Aren't they both dead reliable? Or is it that the Glock is a better piece? If so, then what makes it that way?


S&W like a few other platforms is a step above in trigger, stock sights, and ergos. The M&P is well established, enough to make a Ford vs Chevy argument anyways.

However, how often do you see an M&P do this?



How many Glocks are in the wild vs M&Ps?

Edit. Glock had sold 5 million pistols by 2007.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
.....Glock had sold 5 million pistols by 2007.


In the 2014 edition of the Glock Annual.... 3 years ago, it is noted that the 10 millionth Glock pistol was manufactured in 2013..... Some 4 years ago. In contrast S&W had produced only 1 million M&P's by 2015. So at this point in time Glock has out produced the M&P by a well over 10 to 1 margin.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/08/millionth-shield-0-increase-in-sales/

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
95% of gun carriers nowadays carry one magazine..... it's the one that's already inserted in the handgun.

Unless you are a cop or have a mental sickness that the Zombie Apocalypse is only moments away, one magazine is enough. The average Joe-Blow personal protection conflict statistically ends with only two shots fired.

So one magazine - the one that's in your gun, is all you need for up-close personal protection.


You forgot the most important reason a person would carry a spare magazine. It's not for extra capacity. Its for malfunctions. And actually, for various reasons, when a civilian shoots a gun for self defense, statistically speaking, many are likely to suffer a jam, especially after the first round is fired. Now there are a multitude of reasons, from being a low quality gun, to low quality ammo, improper training, limp wristing, improper grip, lack of lubrication, not breaking the gun in, among others.

The quickest way to fix a jam is to eject the magazine and replace it with a fresh one.

So if you carry a semi auto pistol for defensive use, I would implore you to carry a spare magazine. ANY trainer worth anything would tell you the same thing. A spare mag can disappear into a pocket on your belt and they are not that hard to carry.

And when it comes to something so important (my life), I dont rely on statistics. Statistically speaking, I wont need my seat belt today, but I will wear it anyways. Because just like my seat belt, I'd rather have a spare mag and not need it, then need it and not have it.

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
.....Glock had sold 5 million pistols by 2007.


In the 2014 edition of the Glock Annual.... 3 years ago, it is noted that the 10 millionth Glock pistol was manufactured in 2013..... Some 4 years ago. In contrast S&W had produced only 1 million M&P's by 2015. So at this point in time Glock has out produced the M&P by a well over 10 to 1 margin.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/08/millionth-shield-0-increase-in-sales/


FWIW, the article you posted says that S&W sold 1 million SHIELDS not 1 million M&Ps.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
FWIW, the article you posted says that S&W sold 1 million SHIELDS not 1 million M&Ps.


So enlighten us to the total number.

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460


So enlighten us to the total number.


That's your red herring, so I'll leave you to it. Just thought it was funny you didn't read your own link.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
.......I'll leave you to it.


I already told you. 1 million. The Shield IS a M&P. If you think there were more produced, give us a link.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The article said 1 million Shields ... not 1 million M&Ps. If you count all M&Ps including the Shield model (which is only 1 of about a dozen in the M&P line) it's going to be way more than a million made (probably 8~10M). And the M&P line has only been made since 2005, and the Shield model was started in 2012, so they made a million Shields in about 3 years.

http://www.guns.com/2015/12/03/smith-wesson-ships-millionth-shield

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The article said 1 million Shields ... not 1 million M&Ps. If you count all M&Ps including the Shield model (which is only 1 of about a dozen in the M&P line) it's going to be way more than a million made (probably 8~10M). And the M&P line has only been made since 2005, and the Shield model was started in 2012, so they made a million Shields in about 3 years.


I can't find a link anywhere claiming total production of all M&P auto pistols. Glock produced it's 10 millionth pistol in 2013, 4 years ago. They've been in production since 1982. That's 31 years to achieve 10 million guns. (Glock only hit 5 million as of 2007). I highly doubt the M&P semi auto pistol line is anywhere near that. One million guns is A LOT. 10 million is astounding. Most models of firearms that come anywhere near that figure, have been in production for 40 to 50 years or more. The M&P has only been in production for 12.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
95% of gun carriers nowadays carry one magazine..... it's the one that's already inserted in the handgun.

Unless you are a cop or have a mental sickness that the Zombie Apocalypse is only moments away, one magazine is enough. The average Joe-Blow personal protection conflict statistically ends with only two shots fired.

So one magazine - the one that's in your gun, is all you need for up-close personal protection.


You forgot the most important reason a person would carry a spare magazine. It's not for extra capacity. Its for malfunctions. And actually, for various reasons, when a civilian shoots a gun for self defense, statistically speaking, many are likely to suffer a jam, especially after the first round is fired. Now there are a multitude of reasons, from being a low quality gun, to low quality ammo, improper training, limp wristing, improper grip, lack of lubrication, not breaking the gun in, among others.

The quickest way to fix a jam is to eject the magazine and replace it with a fresh one.

So if you carry a semi auto pistol for defensive use, I would implore you to carry a spare magazine. ANY trainer worth anything would tell you the same thing. A spare mag can disappear into a pocket on your belt and they are not that hard to carry.

And when it comes to something so important (my life), I dont rely on statistics. Statistically speaking, I wont need my seat belt today, but I will wear it anyways. Because just like my seat belt, I'd rather have a spare mag and not need it, then need it and not have it.


Or use the "New York Reload" which means carry a second gun.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The article said 1 million Shields ... not 1 million M&Ps. If you count all M&Ps including the Shield model (which is only 1 of about a dozen in the M&P line) it's going to be way more than a million made (probably 8~10M). And the M&P line has only been made since 2005, and the Shield model was started in 2012, so they made a million Shields in about 3 years.


I can't find a link anywhere claiming total production of all M&P auto pistols. Glock produced it's 10 millionth pistol in 2013, 4 years ago. They've been in production since 1982. That's 31 years to achieve 10 million guns. (Glock only hit 5 million as of 2007). I highly doubt the M&P semi auto pistol line is anywhere near that. One million guns is A LOT. 10 million is astounding. Most models of firearms that come anywhere near that figure, have been in production for 40 to 50 years or more. The M&P has only been in production for 12.


No, the M&P line has been in production since 2005 ... the Shield model (only a small part of the M&P line) has been in production since 2012.

Yeah, the Shield has only been in production since 2012 and the article said they made the 1 millionth Shield at the end of 2015. So 1 million made in about 3 years. That does not include all the other model lines in the M&P series, only the Shield line. If S&W made 1 million of just the Shield model in only 3 years, you can bet the whole M&P line has huge production numbers.

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: billt460
I can't find a link anywhere claiming total production of all M&P auto pistols. Glock produced it's 10 millionth pistol in 2013, 4 years ago. They've been in production since 1982. That's 31 years to achieve 10 million guns. (Glock only hit 5 million as of 2007). I highly doubt the M&P semi auto pistol line is anywhere near that. One million guns is A LOT. 10 million is astounding. Most models of firearms that come anywhere near that figure, have been in production for 40 to 50 years or more. The M&P has only been in production for 12.



31 years to produce 10 million guns?

Here it says S&W produced 10.5 million guns from 1986 to 2010. Probably includes all their non-tupperware real guns also.
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2013/03/26/...ers-in-america/


More reading on the subject of sales
https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/26/the-5-best-selling-handguns-of-2016.aspx

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: funflyer
More reading on the subject of sales
https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/26/the-5-best-selling-handguns-of-2016.aspx


That article said: "The Smith & Wesson M&P Shield, which was introduced in 2005, is a lightweight, concealable pistol which is encased in a polymer frame."

Which is wrong because the M&P line was started in 2005, and the Shield wasn't introduced until 2012. LINK

S&W made 1 million Shields in 3 years ... that's 1,282 guns a day if they were going 5 days a week for 3 years straight.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: funflyer
Here it says S&W produced 10.5 million guns from 1986 to 2010. Probably includes all their non-tupperware real guns also.


Correct. I'm talking about one single model. Or variants and calibers within that particular model. Marlin has made 11 million Model 60's. It's the worlds best selling .22 rifle. The gun has been in continuous production for 57 years. Starting in 1960. The Remington 870 has just recently exceeded 10 million in production. It has been produced since 1950, for 76 straight years. Even the Ruger 10/22 has only sold just over 5 million. And they started producing it in 1964, and have been ever since for the last 53 years. In more variants than you can count.

People throw around these large production numbers without realizing how many guns they're actually talking about. Yeah, the Smith & Wesson M&P line of semi auto pistols got a big kick in the pants sales wise due to concealed carry becoming so popular. Along with 8 years of panic buying during the Obama administration. But so did a truckload of other high capacity, magazine fed polymer pistols. Springfield, H&K, Walther, Glock, and about a dozen other brands I'm forgetting, both foreign and domestic. So when it all evens out, I doubt S&W has sold anywhere near 10 million M&P's. Shield's and all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_10/22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Model_60

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: JDM396
.......I'll leave you to it.


I already told you. 1 million. The Shield IS a M&P. If you think there were more produced, give us a link.


You didn't tell me anything lol. You misread your own link and started stating that Glock outsells M&P 10 to 1. Well you stated a link for just ONE handgun out of the entire M&P line. So your numbers are significantly off. Are you being coy or do you really not understand your own error?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
.....Well you stated a link for just ONE handgun out of the entire M&P line......


I'm asking you for a link to help provide that information. I can't find anything concerning the total production of the M&P line. (If it is in fact any greater than 1 million). If you can produce something to the contrary, I'll gladly stand corrected. As of now you're just making noise. Much like your comment:

Originally Posted By: JDM396
Oh, I completely agree on the S&W Shield in .40. They dropped the ball on that one.


What are you talking about...... That one? They are all of the exact same design.... Just like Glocks are. And they blow up just the same. You asked how often do you see a blown up M&P? I provided a link showing one. Along with information leading to several more that constitutes the exact same issue Glock had with their .40 line with factory ammunition. I'm simply asking the same of you.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Id rather own the Walther PP Series than a Shield.

Glocks rule and I only one (G42)

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Id rather own the Walther PP Series than a Shield.

Glocks rule and I only one (G42)


I think overall the Shield, (along with the entire M&P line), are basically good guns. At least as good as any other Polymer framed pistols currently out there. I don't care too much for the Walther's because of their seemingly high bore axis. They look like Hi-Points in that regard.

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: JDM396
.....Well you stated a link for just ONE handgun out of the entire M&P line......


I'm asking you for a link to help provide that information. I can't find anything concerning the total production of the M&P line. (If it is in fact any greater than 1 million). If you can produce something to the contrary, I'll gladly stand corrected. As of now you're just making noise. Much like your comment:

Originally Posted By: JDM396
Oh, I completely agree on the S&W Shield in .40. They dropped the ball on that one.


What are you talking about...... That one? They are all of the exact same design.... Just like Glocks are. And they blow up just the same. You asked how often do you see a blown up M&P? I provided a link showing one. Along with information leading to several more that constitutes the exact same issue Glock had with their .40 line with factory ammunition. I'm simply asking the same of you.


Let me ask. Do you understand what I mean when I say "moving the goalposts?" You can't prove a point so you keep moving the scope of the discussion, so to lay out in simplest terms..... In essence you're asking me to prove that S&W has sold more than 1 million M&Ps after you posted an article that states they had sold 1million of a particular model of M&P. Do you not understand how dumb that sounds? You're basically saying that S&W has sold 1million shields and none of any of their other M&P line. Now if you want the numbers, go fetch, it's YOUR point to prove, it really doesn't have any merit to the discussion. I just pointed out the fake news so to speak.

Now in terms of my .40 comment it stands true. I generally don't believe in putting a .40 on a frame designed for 9mm. That goes for glock, S&W, or whomever. However, at one point, glock made things worse by providing unsupported barrels, and in my case not understanding how the recoil impulse would affect the gun with a WML. (several LE department had the same issue) Anyway, the 9mm Shields just don't have the issues that .40 one seem to have. Just like G17s never had the same issues G22s would have. The Glocks I posted consisted of several calibers and sizes and a quick google search merits significantly more. If you're trying to say the shield 9 has as many problems as the shield 40, then again, that's your point to prove.