GM's 230 mpg Chevy Volt aka Toyota Prius killer

[DeeAgeaux]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ


But wait the Nissan Leaf can get 367 mpg, take that Volt.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/quote-of-the-day-steal-a-little-thunder-edition/


The Leaf is a Versa with different duds.

Volt is a Civic/Corolla sized car.

Leaf has a 100 mile absolute range.

On gas, Volt has unlimited range.

Leaf is a third car for "City driving"

Volt is a real car than can replace a compact car.

It can be your only car.

 

[JHZR2]

OK, lots of folks need to learn units and unit conversions.

It is absolutely possible to compute an "MPG" basis for an EV, so long as you set forth a few parameters.

A gallon of gasoline has a certain amount of energy. A pound of coal has a certain amount of energy. An ounce of uranium has a certain amount of energy. All of these things can be made equivalent to one another on the basis of a certain amount of energy.

So, let's make funny numbers. Let's say that for the gallon of gas, the pound of coal and the ounce of uranium, all are one watt-hour worth of energy. You can produce one watt, for one hour by conversion of any of them.

The only true valuation of MPG is an IC only vehicle. Then fuel in gives you power out, which is traction over a distance. MPG. If you hybridize, you already have a pseudo-MPG, because energy storage is accounting for some. One could play accountant with a hybrid by starting out with a 100% full battery, running on gasoline with battery assist, and ending with a 0% full battery. You used the energy in the gas, but cheated and got the energy in the battery too.

I'm not saying that is how they do it, I am just saying what could be done.

Now, go to an EV. If you go back to my true efficiency estimates on the first page, you can see how the energy in the raw fuel might be considered to equate power out via an efficiency value. Figuring efficiency into it, one can normalize, say, a powerplant efficiency on a pound of coal vs. an IC engine efficiency on a gallon of gasoline. To go so far, you need this much gasoline, or this much coal (converted at their respective efficiencies). However, we know that for the pure IC case, we go liquid fuel in, distance out. We can normalize the energy, since energy units are irrespective of what the source is, and thus get an equivalent MPG value.

It is fully possible and logical to quote "MPG" for an EV, as you can normalize values to enable an apples to apples comparisson.

We are surrounded with bogus units anyhow... Take a common one for example... horsepower. It is as bogus a unit (IMO) as MPG from an electric car. HP is just a semi-normalized valuation of torque.

 

[Shannow]

JHZR2, I agree with most of your post bar the last statement.

I could remove the engine from a car, apply a long enough lever, and provide more torque than the engine....however, my "rate of doing torque" would be atrocious, and the vehicle would not achieve any usable sort of velocity.

Power is a unit of the ability to do work.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
JHZR2, I agree with most of your post bar the last statement.

I could remove the engine from a car, apply a long enough lever, and provide more torque than the engine....however, my "rate of doing torque" would be atrocious, and the vehicle would not achieve any usable sort of velocity.

Power is a unit of the ability to do work.


You beat me to it. Except power is work/time.

 

[tonycarguy]

Originally Posted By: DeeAgeaux
Most hybrid owners want unique styling to let everyone know they are driving hybrids and are threfore better citizens of the world than the rest of us.

The Volt will be a smashing success.

[P content removed]

BTW There is a small but growing group of Righties that will by this car on national energy independence,reduce reliance on foreign oil, buy American grounds.

The Volt will be a winner.

Book it.


Most hybrid buyers could care less about how the car looks. They care about MPG (ie, cost of ownership) and that's all. Why did hybrid sales go through the roof when gas hit $4/gal? Did those people suddenly want to make a fashion statement? And when gas went back to $2, why did hybrid sales fall off a cliff??

There won't be enough tree huggers around to support sales of a $40k compact economy car. The sales will come primarily from people who want to save money on gas. At $40k it makes no sense unless the Volt can get 150+mpg , which I know it won't. It will be a dud unless they price it relative to its MPG (ie, cost of ownership)

 

[PT1]

Volt- $40,000

Prius- $23,000 + $17,000 for gas= 300,000 miles of driving for the price of a Volt.

So how many trips and re-charges do you have to make in a Volt to hit break even with a Prius?

Prius- on the road...proven technology

Volt- still not on the street yet...who is going to repair it?

Volt = FAIL

BTW..you are at the Chevy showroom and see a Volt for $40,000. Right next to it sits a Corvette for $51,000. Are you REALLY going to buy the Volt to save money?

 

[DeeAgeaux]

Originally Posted By: tonycarguy


Most hybrid buyers could care less about how the car looks. They care about MPG (ie, cost of ownership) and that's all. Why did hybrid sales go through the roof when gas hit $4/gal? Did those people suddenly want to make a fashion statement? And when gas went back to $2, why did hybrid sales fall off a cliff??


Hypermilers on websites are a tiny niche. "Panick" buyers that bought hybrids when gas hit $4 but went back to SUVs as soon as gas dropped below $2.50 are not most hybrid buyers.

Why do uniquely styled hybrids succeed while "conversion" hybrids (relative terms) fail. Why did Honda bother with the Insight when it has the Civic hybrid?

Because people want to make a fashion/political statement.

Quote:
There won't be enough tree huggers around to support sales of a $40k compact economy car. The sales will come primarily from people who want to save money on gas. At $40k it makes no sense unless the Volt can get 150+mpg , which I know it won't. It will be a dud unless they price it relative to its MPG (ie, cost of ownership)




I have lived in Los Angeles,San Francisco,and New York.

Obviously you don't know the extent of tree hugger nation nor their wealth.

The sales are not for a $40K compact economy car.

Much like the Prius only more so, it is rolling political/fashion statement.

It says I care about the eviroment more than you do therefore a I am a better person.

Leno and Lettermen have contacted Lutz saying they want the first Volt of the assemly line. Do they want to save gas?

There are a million more millionaires that are not celebreties that will want one for the same reason.

Same people that filled Obama's coffers.

This will make the first generation of Volts a success.

Add the growing number of right wing Anti-OIl Hawks and Volt will be a smashing success.

Second generation of Volts will have a lower price tag as they will not need all new tooling and battery tech will be cheaper.

It will give upper middle class professionals the chance to buy a car that until recently was mostly purchased by the rich.

 

[DeeAgeaux]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Volt- $40,000


Minus $7.5k federal tax credit.

Quote:
Prius- $23,000 + $17,000 for gas= 300,000 miles of driving for the price of a Volt.


$23K for a Prius stripper.
$30K loaded.

Plus constatn gas usage plus constant emissions.

Quote:
So how many trips and re-charges do you have to make in a Volt to hit break even with a Prius?


Buy a Honda Fit and pocket the aproximately $10K and how long will it take the Prius to break even?

Quote:
Prius- on the road...proven technology


Prius prove over aproximately 12 years.

ICE proven over 100 years

Quote:
Volt- still not on the street yet...who is going to repair it?


Any Chevrolet dealer and a growing number of indy shops that are already sending techs to learn about new electric vehicles.

Volt = Success

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: DeeAgeaux
Originally Posted By: PT1
Volt- $40,000


Minus $7.5k federal tax credit.



Families who earn over $200k annually won't qualify for any tax credits. Sound like a big number but that will be many who would be attracted to the car in the first place to make their "statement". Some of you guys in Kali think the rest of the country thinks like you do or that people East of Kali care about what Letterman or Leno do.

If you guys would pay attention you would realize that people earning over $150k per year and hitting AMT have been paying 28% federal tax and have lost their home mortgage interest deduction. This has gone on for years. No doubt the $7500 will disappear for many.

 

[PT1]

As for the "Prius Killer" ??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: DeeAgeaux
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy


Hybrids only sell well when they're within $2k of a non-hybrid. Does anyone remember the Accord hybrid? It was $5k over a regular Accord and sold poorly; Honda canned it. Selling for $15k+ over comparables, the Volt will be DOA



[censored]

Then how do you explain Prius selling well with a $4-7K premium over a similarly equiped Corolla?

The Accord hybrid did not sell well because it looked exactly like the regular Accord. And it was a "performance hybrid" not a fuel saving hybrid.

Most hybrid owners want unique styling to let everyone know they are driving hybrids and are threfore better citizens of the world than the rest of us.

The Volt will be a smashing success.

[P content removed]

BTW There is a small but growing group of Righties that will by this car on national energy independence,reduce reliance on foreign oil, buy American grounds.

The Volt will be a winner.

Book it.
UNTIL the first factory-produced plug in Prius is produced-it's already been done-& the Volt is just the thing to push Toyota to add battery capacity & plug-in capability to a PROVEN vehicle. Given GM's recent engineering track record (they can't even use a decent antifreeze [DEXCOOL!])-I can't wait to see how they'll screw up a vehicle as sophisticated as the Volt!

 

[oilyriser]

You charge the EV using a natural gas fired generator in your basement that makes hot water with the waste heat. A 20 mile hwy commute in a Camry sized car takes about 0.625 gallons of gas, which makes about 12700 BTU of mechanical energy to move the car. An electric car will need about 16,000 BTU of electric energy to charge its batteries for a similar trip. An efficient co-gen system will make about 2x as much heat as electricity, or 32,000 BTU, which is enough to heat 42 gallons of water by 90 degrees F.

 

[mikered30]

Can the 3rd gen prius be modified to be plug in if Toyota develops a battery that works?

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
It is fully possible and logical to quote "MPG" for an EV, as you can normalize values to enable an apples to apples comparisson.


The thing about mileage is that it becomes less significant the higher the number goes. Energy consumption rate, on the other hand, is much more meaningful and easier to see the differences.

Here is a simple example:

A typical family that has two commuter cars, one that gets 30mpg and a bigger SUV that gets 15mpg. They want to upgrade to something more economical, but can only afford to change one car and they want to retain the option for family trips, so two small cars won't do. They have two options:

1. Change the 30mpg car with 40mpg car or (say compact for hybrid),
2. Change the 15mpg car with a 20 mpg car (SUV for minivan or CUV).

Most people would immiediatly say change the 30mpg car for 40mpg car as you have 10mpg difference instead of 5mpg.

Assuming both cars are driven about the same (20k a year for my example) a simple calculation will show that the annual savings between the:

30mpg and 40mpg are 666.67 - 500 = 166.7 gallons

15mpg and 20 mpg are 1333.33 - 1000 = 333.3 gallons
So, changing the SUV for a minivan makes more sense, but most people do not understand how MPG works.

But if you had the fuel consumption insted of mileage the difference is easier to spot:

30mpg = 3.33 Gal/100 miles (I followed the L/100KM used in Europe and Canada)
40mpg = 2.5 Gal/100 miles

Difference between the two 0.84 Gal/100 Miles

15mpg = 6.67 Gal/100 miles
20mpg = 5 Gal/100 miles

Difference between the two 1.67 Gal/100 miles

Much easier in my opinion.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser
You charge the EV using a natural gas fired generator in your basement that makes hot water with the waste heat. A 20 mile hwy commute in a Camry sized car takes about 0.625 gallons of gas, which makes about 12700 BTU of mechanical energy to move the car. An electric car will need about 16,000 BTU of electric energy to charge its batteries for a similar trip. An efficient co-gen system will make about 2x as much heat as electricity, or 32,000 BTU, which is enough to heat 42 gallons of water by 90 degrees F.


There's an Oz company making a 2kW NG fired fuel cell that doubles as a water heater...87% total efficiency

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
. . .
Hybrids only sell well when they're within $2k of a non-hybrid. Does anyone remember the Accord hybrid? It was $5k over a regular Accord and sold poorly; Honda canned it. Selling for $15k+ over comparables, the Volt will be DOA


I have to disagree with that. The Accord hybrid died a deserved death, because it was all wrong from every direction. Honda erred terribly in making it a V-6 based performance hybrid, instead of an I-4 based economy hybrid. Toyota has succeeded in selling performance hybrids, but much further upmarket. The Lexus GS and LS hybrids use their hybrid systems more for performance enhancement than fuel economy. The Accord did this too -- but that's not what Accord buyers wanted. Compare the Camry hybrid, a reasonable compromise I-4 that virtually drives itself off dealers' lots.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: DeeAgeaux
. . .
Why do uniquely styled hybrids succeed while "conversion" hybrids (relative terms) fail. Why did Honda bother with the Insight when it has the Civic hybrid?

Because people want to make a fashion/political statement.
. . .


You can't generalize like that from the Accord's failure. The Camry hybrid is a success. The Highlander hybrid (at obscene prices) is a success. So is the Lexus RX. GS and LS are different animals (hard over performance hybrids). That "political statement" thing is as uncommon as the extremists on the websites. Most of us get them because they work for us.

 

[crw]

Hey, I found a place that has 5-cent KWhr electricity! Right here in little old Idaho. Yep, right here, where 75% of the vehicles on the road are late-model Dodge trucks. Right here. We have lots of rivers, and few people. You could all move here. Well, maybe not.

No, I'm not in the market for a Volt...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
JHZR2, I agree with most of your post bar the last statement.

I could remove the engine from a car, apply a long enough lever, and provide more torque than the engine....however, my "rate of doing torque" would be atrocious, and the vehicle would not achieve any usable sort of velocity.

Power is a unit of the ability to do work.


Agree 100%. But if you look at the "definition" of a horsepower, it is a valuation of torque. (Torque x Engine speed) / 5,252 = Horsepower

There is a basis, but it is a funny unit all the same. At a top level, if one doesnt understand radians, the 550 ft-lb/sec basis, etc., HP is a ridiculous unit, and even if they did, one may argue it still is a ridiculous unit compared to a kW, which is based in a more standard value of a kilogram and meter, amongst other things.

Now, given the multipliers and lumped conversion factors in the valuation of horsepower, I would still maintain that it is no different than if we lumped a bunch of conversion factors and formulated an electric MPG equivalent.

 

[smokey1]

A PRIUS for less than $19 thou is due soon . Before you know it hybrids will be less than $17 grand .