How heavy is a gallon of electrons?
GM's 230 mpg Chevy Volt aka Toyota Prius killer
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Leave it to GM to over-promise!
How about a "mpg" measurement of hybrids averaged over a full tank of gas, starting with "dead" (20%) batteries. That would normalize the figure.
How about a "mpg" measurement of hybrids averaged over a full tank of gas, starting with "dead" (20%) batteries. That would normalize the figure.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
How heavy is a gallon of electrons?
there is a mass and volume associated with an electron. The question becomes what packing factor/geometry are we assuming? I assume that you are assuming an electron to be spherical.
How heavy is a gallon of electrons?
there is a mass and volume associated with an electron. The question becomes what packing factor/geometry are we assuming? I assume that you are assuming an electron to be spherical.
230mpg + ton of coal
Cool, I guess charging it at the local coal electric plant doesn't cost anything financially or environmentally?????
I great way to get rid of nuclear waste is to mix it into the paint of all these electric vehicles.
Narrow minds and farsightedness rules
Oh, I almost forgot. We're putting all the coal plants out of business by only building new natural-gas power plants. I guess that natural gas will never run out and is in unlimited supply..........
Cool, I guess charging it at the local coal electric plant doesn't cost anything financially or environmentally?????
I great way to get rid of nuclear waste is to mix it into the paint of all these electric vehicles.
Narrow minds and farsightedness rules
Oh, I almost forgot. We're putting all the coal plants out of business by only building new natural-gas power plants. I guess that natural gas will never run out and is in unlimited supply..........
The NGers putting coal plants out of business is a classic lack of central planning for infrastructure.
The "market" doesn't always work.
Coal baseload requires heaps of time and capital to build, and has to be designed over "average" requirements, to meat the majority of the peak.
Most of the profit for a coal plant occurs during the peaks.
Throw in a (relatively) cheap Simple cycle GT Natural Gas plant, albeit with high fuel costs, and they get to own the peaks. The coal plant profitability tanks, and investors won't run them (or maintain them), when the see the cram that they can skim with simple cycle GTs.
The simple cycle GTs will never ever supply the baseload, and they'll certainly never ever be supplying the electric vehicles, and certainly not at 5c/kWhr.
(and they'll never be powering the "hydrogen economy" boondogle either).
We're more short sighted WRT future energy production than ever before...
The "market" doesn't always work.
Coal baseload requires heaps of time and capital to build, and has to be designed over "average" requirements, to meat the majority of the peak.
Most of the profit for a coal plant occurs during the peaks.
Throw in a (relatively) cheap Simple cycle GT Natural Gas plant, albeit with high fuel costs, and they get to own the peaks. The coal plant profitability tanks, and investors won't run them (or maintain them), when the see the cram that they can skim with simple cycle GTs.
The simple cycle GTs will never ever supply the baseload, and they'll certainly never ever be supplying the electric vehicles, and certainly not at 5c/kWhr.
(and they'll never be powering the "hydrogen economy" boondogle either).
We're more short sighted WRT future energy production than ever before...
You bring up some good points. The Volt will be of little use to those driving 50 miles each way to work, or on the go all day. However, for many, it will shift our energy usage away from foreign oil towards whatever we use to generate electricity. One interesting idea I have chiefly read about in Forbes magazine, is using the battery pack in all the electric cars to meet peak loads, with compensation to the owners. The biggest drawback to that I see is a lack of time to recharge the cars between the early afternoon peak, and the late afternoon commute. Another concern is back feeding to a power line under repair.
Too bad neither presidential candidate had the guts to say ''America needs nuclear more than I need Nevada's 3 electoral votes. It will be the foundation of my energy policy including Yucca Mountain.''
+1 on hydrogen. OK, all we need is a source, and a good way to store it. Other than those minor details, it is a great fuel. Are 2 major breakthroughs too much to ask?
Note, markets are at their worst when distorted by the heavy hand of the government. See recent financial results. Also note the results of regulating automobile millage and safety more strictly than that of trucks.
Too bad neither presidential candidate had the guts to say ''America needs nuclear more than I need Nevada's 3 electoral votes. It will be the foundation of my energy policy including Yucca Mountain.''
+1 on hydrogen. OK, all we need is a source, and a good way to store it. Other than those minor details, it is a great fuel. Are 2 major breakthroughs too much to ask?
Note, markets are at their worst when distorted by the heavy hand of the government. See recent financial results. Also note the results of regulating automobile millage and safety more strictly than that of trucks.
I would call the characterization "problematic," perhaps not worthless altogether. The vast majority of people who bother to measure mpgs are accustomed to doing the simple math on miles driven over gallons used in a conventional car. No problem there.
Now for the true total short trippers, there will be NO mpg calculation at all (yes, this is an extreme, I know). If you always plug your Volt in at home, and never use up the at-home charge, in theory, the Volt's gas engine will just rust away, and your "mpgs" will be mathematically meaningless, as it would require you to divide by zero.
Things will be more difficult for the mixed pattern drivers, as they will need to (if they want meaningful data) to account for electric-only vs mixed power driving.
For the long-trippers, time will tell whether this mode of hybridization (serial, as implemented) is more or less efficient than the parallel hybridization, as implemented in comparable cars from other makers.
Now for the true total short trippers, there will be NO mpg calculation at all (yes, this is an extreme, I know). If you always plug your Volt in at home, and never use up the at-home charge, in theory, the Volt's gas engine will just rust away, and your "mpgs" will be mathematically meaningless, as it would require you to divide by zero.
Things will be more difficult for the mixed pattern drivers, as they will need to (if they want meaningful data) to account for electric-only vs mixed power driving.
For the long-trippers, time will tell whether this mode of hybridization (serial, as implemented) is more or less efficient than the parallel hybridization, as implemented in comparable cars from other makers.
Originally Posted By: labman
. . .
Too bad neither presidential candidate had the guts to say ''America needs nuclear more than I need Nevada's 3 electoral votes. It will be the foundation of my energy policy including Yucca Mountain.''. . .
Ignoring the superficial political aspect, well put!
. . .
Too bad neither presidential candidate had the guts to say ''America needs nuclear more than I need Nevada's 3 electoral votes. It will be the foundation of my energy policy including Yucca Mountain.''. . .
Ignoring the superficial political aspect, well put!
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
KrisZ said:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
You charge the EV using a natural gas fired generator in your basement that makes hot water with the waste heat. A 20 mile hwy commute in a Camry sized car takes about 0.625 gallons of gas, which makes about 12700 BTU of mechanical energy to move the car. An electric car will need about 16,000 BTU of electric energy to charge its batteries for a similar trip. An efficient co-gen system will make about 2x as much heat as electricity, or 32,000 BTU, which is enough to heat 42 gallons of water by 90 degrees F.
There's an Oz company making a 2kW NG fired fuel cell that doubles as a water heater...87% total efficiency
that's cool
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
You charge the EV using a natural gas fired generator in your basement that makes hot water with the waste heat. A 20 mile hwy commute in a Camry sized car takes about 0.625 gallons of gas, which makes about 12700 BTU of mechanical energy to move the car. An electric car will need about 16,000 BTU of electric energy to charge its batteries for a similar trip. An efficient co-gen system will make about 2x as much heat as electricity, or 32,000 BTU, which is enough to heat 42 gallons of water by 90 degrees F.
There's an Oz company making a 2kW NG fired fuel cell that doubles as a water heater...87% total efficiency
that's cool
JHZR2
Staff member
there are multiple US companies doing the same.
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
KrisZ said:
Last edited:
I wouldn't consider a G.M car. what B.S. What happens when the electric rates go sky high ?
That assumes CO2 is causing damage to the environment. Not a proven fact.
Ultimately, what 95% of hybrid buyers care about is cost of ownership. The greeness factor is overrated; buyers didn't give a [censored] about the greeness of hybrids when gas was $1.75/gallon.
The cost per mile should be posted on the car, and they should assume real world energy costs. $0.13/kwh and $3/gal. Then let buyers decide whether the Volt's $17k premium is worth it.
The cost per mile should be posted on the car, and they should assume real world energy costs. $0.13/kwh and $3/gal. Then let buyers decide whether the Volt's $17k premium is worth it.
Originally Posted By: labman
That assumes CO2 is causing damage to the environment. Not a proven fact.
Please point me to where I said that it was.
If the push to these cars is for reduced CO2, then that's how they should be measured, in lieu of any valid means of comparing "fuel consumption".
That assumes CO2 is causing damage to the environment. Not a proven fact.
Please point me to where I said that it was.
If the push to these cars is for reduced CO2, then that's how they should be measured, in lieu of any valid means of comparing "fuel consumption".
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Ultimately, what 95% of hybrid buyers care about is cost of ownership. The greeness factor is overrated; buyers didn't give a [censored] about the greeness of hybrids when gas was $1.75/gallon.
The cost per mile should be posted on the car, and they should assume real world energy costs. $0.13/kwh and $3/gal. Then let buyers decide whether the Volt's $17k premium is worth it.
You may be partly right. The hybrid owner I know best is may daughter. Shortly after graduating in 2001 with a degree in environmental engineering, They bought an Insight for her 60 mile each way commute. Within a few years, they traded it on a Civic Hybrid and she had found a job much closer to where they were living. They are no tree huggers, but are environmentally aware. They are also engineers. Perhaps more image conscious than I am, but not affluent enough to waste thousands on a car to support it.
I could see them buying a Volt. The Honda will be aging by the time it is available. I don't know how fast battery recharging stations as an employee perk will spread. With her working for the city, and him a university that is the biggest employer in town, I could see it happening early there. Parking lots where you swipe your card and plug in? Or pay a dollar extra for spots with an outlet? Even with all their charging at home, it would work well for them. Much of their driving is less than 40 mile trips.
While GM may talk CO2, much of it is dollars and foreign oil. Coal may be dirty, and CO2 emission rich, but it is American. I is amazing how many people talk buy American, but drive guzzlers.
Ultimately, what 95% of hybrid buyers care about is cost of ownership. The greeness factor is overrated; buyers didn't give a [censored] about the greeness of hybrids when gas was $1.75/gallon.
The cost per mile should be posted on the car, and they should assume real world energy costs. $0.13/kwh and $3/gal. Then let buyers decide whether the Volt's $17k premium is worth it.
You may be partly right. The hybrid owner I know best is may daughter. Shortly after graduating in 2001 with a degree in environmental engineering, They bought an Insight for her 60 mile each way commute. Within a few years, they traded it on a Civic Hybrid and she had found a job much closer to where they were living. They are no tree huggers, but are environmentally aware. They are also engineers. Perhaps more image conscious than I am, but not affluent enough to waste thousands on a car to support it.
I could see them buying a Volt. The Honda will be aging by the time it is available. I don't know how fast battery recharging stations as an employee perk will spread. With her working for the city, and him a university that is the biggest employer in town, I could see it happening early there. Parking lots where you swipe your card and plug in? Or pay a dollar extra for spots with an outlet? Even with all their charging at home, it would work well for them. Much of their driving is less than 40 mile trips.
While GM may talk CO2, much of it is dollars and foreign oil. Coal may be dirty, and CO2 emission rich, but it is American. I is amazing how many people talk buy American, but drive guzzlers.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: labman
While GM may talk CO2, much of it is dollars and foreign oil. Coal may be dirty, and CO2 emission rich, but it is American. I is amazing how many people talk buy American, but drive guzzlers.
While I fundamentally agree, once the crude is delivered over here, there are LOTS of decent chemical industry jobs that are supported by the processing for fuels, other products, etc.
While GM may talk CO2, much of it is dollars and foreign oil. Coal may be dirty, and CO2 emission rich, but it is American. I is amazing how many people talk buy American, but drive guzzlers.
While I fundamentally agree, once the crude is delivered over here, there are LOTS of decent chemical industry jobs that are supported by the processing for fuels, other products, etc.
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