GM Did It Again! Volt discussion thread

[greenjp]

This is a hilarious thread.

Everyone doing the return on investment/total ownership costs analysis of the Volt is completely missing the point. As I said in another thread, the Volt is essentially a luxury car. Not in the traditional sense of a luxury car being powerful, packed with feautres, corinthian leather and all that, but rather luxury as techno-whizbangery, first on the block, hey I'm getting 127 mpg (or whatever).

No one ever does a ROI/TOC analysis when considering whether to spend more for leather seats, a sunroof, V6 upgrade, etc. Now of course you can include fuel savings as part of your decision when thinking about the Volt, but ultimately a $41k car (incentives notwithstanding) is not bought to save money in the long run.

jeff

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ


GM did design their system, but like anything automotive, well their designs will be similar to something else.

If what you're saying can be taken literally, then no one designs their own engines, since they are basically copies of the steam engine, no one designs tires, they just throw in rubber and pretty thread patterns to "obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)", but all they did is copy some caveman's design.

I have my gripes with GM, but let's not bash them on everything because it's "fashionable".


I'm not bashing them because it's fashionable, I'm bashing them because I read their patent in detail.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I have made points in favour, and against the Volt. Big points in favor of it: GM is finally stepping into the hybrid market, and doing so with its own design that it holds exclusive rights to


It's not their own design, it's a Prius with a heap of (superfluous) clutches thrown in to obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)...


GM did design their system, but like anything automotive, well their designs will be similar to something else.

If what you're saying can be taken literally, then no one designs their own engines, since they are basically copies of the steam engine, no one designs tires, they just throw in rubber and pretty thread patterns to "obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)", but all they did is copy some caveman's design.

I have my gripes with GM, but let's not bash them on everything because it's "fashionable".


I agree. Most designs with a different patent perform the same function and in this case the Volt does things the Prius can't do like drive 40 miles without the aid of an IC engine using gasoline. To say the Volt is not GM's design would be saying practically no one has their own design for anything.

 

[Shannow]

read my previous posts discussing the transmission design in the GM patent.

I never said that GM didn't design the car, but the transmission was very Toyota like (like Ford found out with their parallel design).

 

[OneEyeJack]

There's nothing to the Prius transmission, just a planetary gear set with one forward speed and no gear shifting and no reverse gear. When you back up it's on the smaller of the two electric motors. Mechanically it's really simple and that's good.

 

[KrisZ]

In the other Volt thread, another poster said that Motor Trend got 127mpg's from Volt during their testing. I checked their website and they had no explanation on how they got that number at the time.

Well, MT just posted detailed info on that.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_...experience.html


Note that out of 299 mile tip only 84.6 miles were on the IC engine + battery, the rest of the miles were on battery only.

So while the 127mpg sounds really impressive, the number is totally meaningless as every one will get something else depending how many miles are covered on battery and how many are covered in range extending mode.

Also if you calculate that 85.6 miles on IC + Battery used 2.359 gallons of gas, which is 35.8 mpg!, a truly pathetic number for 80% highway commute for a car that is claimed as a “game changer”.

Moral of the story, GM and our pathetic media should provide something more meaningful like mileage in range extending mode on top of battery mileage, as most of the people will take 127, or whatever mileage GM posts, literally and will think you can make over a thousand mile journey in one shot on one tank of gas.

 

[IndyIan]

I don't think you can say anything about the Volts mileage good or bad, until its clear how car actually functions in detail.
It could be aggresively recharging its batteries using its motor for the next electric only stint, we don't know right now.

 

[John_K]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
In the other Volt thread, another poster said that Motor Trend got 127mpg's from Volt during their testing. I checked their website and they had no explanation on how they got that number at the time.

Well, MT just posted detailed info on that.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_...experience.html


Note that out of 299 mile tip only 84.6 miles were on the IC engine + battery, the rest of the miles were on battery only.

So while the 127mpg sounds really impressive, the number is totally meaningless as every one will get something else depending how many miles are covered on battery and how many are covered in range extending mode.

Also if you calculate that 85.6 miles on IC + Battery used 2.359 gallons of gas, which is 35.8 mpg!, a truly pathetic number for 80% highway commute for a car that is claimed as a “game changer”.

Moral of the story, GM and our pathetic media should provide something more meaningful like mileage in range extending mode on top of battery mileage, as most of the people will take 127, or whatever mileage GM posts, literally and will think you can make over a thousand mile journey in one shot on one tank of gas.


Exactly. A person could get 1,000 mpg if they never drove on gas. Stupid. 35.8 mpg is the real number, which IS pathetic.

John

 

[Schmoe]

From what I read, the Volt is like a diesel locomotive. There is no direct connection from the engine to the drive train. The drive train is strictly batteries. Engine is only used to power up the batteries. Now, doesn't the Pirius use the engine for the drive train when the batteries run out? Or is it the same kind of set up? I don't know what Honda is doing with their version.

 

[Drew99GT]

Schmoe, look at the other Volt thread. At highway speeds, the Volt IC engine IS directly connected to the drivetrain and the wheels. It can't maintain speeds above 70 mph without the IC engine.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ


So while the 127mpg sounds really impressive, the number is totally meaningless as every one will get something else depending how many miles are covered on battery and how many are covered in range extending mode.



I agree with you that the number will change a LOT based on personal use and driving profile...BUT that doesnt make their observed mileage meaningless.

Consider the fact that many will use the Volt in a manner that will return far higher MPG, just as there are some users that will observe lower mpg numbers. A point addressed in this comment in the MT article....

"You see, with the Volt your mileage really will vary. Over the 52 miles I ran the car around L.A., my gas mileage equated to something like 400 mpg. Over the 173.9 miles I'd covered since leaving Tehachapi -- 70 percent of which had been hard-driving freeway miles -- I'd averaged 59.3 mpg. But I still had six gallons of gas left in the tank, which might last me another four months if I continued my usual commuting and weekend driving pattern around L.A., or another four hours if I decided to drive to San Francisco."

Notice the author noted that if driving his normal work commute, the six gallons of gas left in the tank would last him another four months...The point is that many will get far better than 127, while others will never see that. Just like any hybrid or any car for that matter, the Volt will not make sense for everyone in every situation. Whats new about that? While the average consumer may not realize the difference, I would hope all the "car guys" around here could see the distinction.

It may be meaningless to you and your use profile, but to many others it is a valid choice and will return great mileage...Does the fact that some people wouldn't see that mileage somehow negate their experience?

 

[Bill in Utah]

I'll remove some of the latest posts and keep this open. I've also merged the two Volt threads to keep them in this one.

If your post was removed it was for either not needed in this thread since both are merged or trolling (consider it a friendly reminder)

Bill

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
.... It can't maintain speeds above 70 mph without the IC engine.


Yes and no, when the battery is at full charge the car can run completey on battery power up to 100 mph iirc. Once the battery is below a certain charge level THEN the ice is required above 70 mph.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: John_K
Exactly. A person could get 1,000 mpg if they never drove on gas. Stupid. 35.8 mpg is the real number, which IS pathetic.


Of course you realize that for the 85.6 miles that the IC was on, it was not only propelling the car down the highway, but it was also charging the battery so that the other 213.4 miles could be traversed without the engine on at all?

Just so we're clear...

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
.... It can't maintain speeds above 70 mph without the IC engine.


Yes and no, when the battery is at full charge the car can run completey on battery power up to 100 mph iirc. Once the battery is below a certain charge level THEN the ice is required above 70 mph.



From the OP

Quote:
The 4ET50 is, however, in fact directly bolted to the 1.4-liter, four-cylinder Ecotec internal combustion engine. When the Volt's lithium-ion battery pack runs down, clutches in the 4ET50 engage and the Ecotec engine is lashed to the generator to produce the electric power necessary to drive the car. However under certain circumstances — speeds near or above 70 mph — in fact the engine will directly drive the front wheels in conjunction with the electric motors.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
.... It can't maintain speeds above 70 mph without the IC engine.


Yes and no, when the battery is at full charge the car can run completey on battery power up to 100 mph iirc. Once the battery is below a certain charge level THEN the ice is required above 70 mph.



From the OP

Quote:
The 4ET50 is, however, in fact directly bolted to the 1.4-liter, four-cylinder Ecotec internal combustion engine. When the Volt's lithium-ion battery pack runs down, clutches in the 4ET50 engage and the Ecotec engine is lashed to the generator to produce the electric power necessary to drive the car. However under certain circumstances — speeds near or above 70 mph — in fact the engine will directly drive the front wheels in conjunction with the electric motors.


Yes Bill, I understand, notice it says "under certain circumstances"?

Those circumstances are when the battery is below a certain level. It is a fact that the Volt with a FULL charge will do 100 mph with the ICE completely off.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ



So while the 127mpg sounds really impressive, the number is totally meaningless as every one will get something else depending how many miles are covered on battery and how many are covered in range extending mode.



Well duh, thanks for yet another Captain Obvious comment. Wasn't your first round of bashing enough for you?

I believe that I could buy one or two Volts for my wife and myself and never use liquid fuel, unless one of them was to be driven to our secondary residence. My wife for sure could get by on the advertised electric only range, although I might have to split my usual rounds in two and install a charging station at my office for a top up. The irony would be that part of my rounds is a daily check on the location where I retail liquid motor fuels.

I guess I could throw in the occassional trip to our secondary residence and still beat that 127 number averaged over time.

Not saying I will do this, but for many, this vehicle could obsolete liquid fuels.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
.... It can't maintain speeds above 70 mph without the IC engine.


Yes and no, when the battery is at full charge the car can run completey on battery power up to 100 mph iirc. Once the battery is below a certain charge level THEN the ice is required above 70 mph.



From the OP

Quote:
The 4ET50 is, however, in fact directly bolted to the 1.4-liter, four-cylinder Ecotec internal combustion engine. When the Volt's lithium-ion battery pack runs down, clutches in the 4ET50 engage and the Ecotec engine is lashed to the generator to produce the electric power necessary to drive the car. However under certain circumstances — speeds near or above 70 mph — in fact the engine will directly drive the front wheels in conjunction with the electric motors.


Yes Bill, I understand, notice it says "under certain circumstances"?

Those circumstances are when the battery is below a certain level. It is a fact that the Volt with a FULL charge will do 100 mph with the ICE completely off.


I'm getting that under certain circumstances LIKE being near or over 70 MPH the IC engine WILL directly drive the front wheels with the electric motors.

That would be one of the certain circumstances...

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: John_K


Exactly. A person could get 1,000 mpg if they never drove on gas. Stupid. 35.8 mpg is the real number, which IS pathetic.

John


Soooo...if a person happened to have a need for a car for daily commutes and his travels returned a high MPG figure due to HIS use of the vehicle...his observations would be meaningless? Maybe to you and your personal use, but not to the guy who got that 1000 mpg.

Why do people assume that this car will fit all needs at all times? Pretty myopic imo, ignores the vast number of different needs and wants.

Just like the Prius, this Volt will not make sense for everyone and every use imaginable. Can you name one single car or truck that is all things to all consumers?????

 

[KrisZ]

The reason the number is meaningless is because GM is trying to measure something that is not in use most of the times.

How can you measure fuel consumption of an engine when it is not used? That's what GM and magazines are doing, they lump miles driven on the battery and IC together to come up with this impressive number. GM knows exactly that's the only way they can claim such a thing, but average Joe Sixpack will think that they can do 127 miles on one gallon of gas either in city or on a vacation trip.

Meantime GM omits an inconvenient truth, that in order to get such mileage you have to recharge the battery about every 50 miles.

Is there anyone willing to take a 2,000 mile trip in 50 mile hops?