German Syntec in Northstars/LS1s?

[2KBMW]

Will. Why don't you go with the Castrol Syntec
5w50 grade. It's a A3 rated oil. Or go with
a half/half mix of 0w30 & 5w50 Syntec. I would
not use 0w30 in that V8.

 

[Rat407]

I talked to a gentleman at our car show here on the base over Easter weekend last year. He put a NS in his Fiero. Told me that it was easy, just modified the axle shafts and motor mounts and the rest fit like a glove. Needless to say it flew and drove circles around the Z06 Vette. But then he had NOS too.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 2KBMW:
Will. Why don't you go with the Castrol Syntec
5w50 grade. It's a A3 rated oil. Or go with
a half/half mix of 0w30 & 5w50 Syntec. I would
not use 0w30 in that V8.

---

What's wrong with using all 0w30 in his V8? I saw excellent oil analysis results using this oil in my LT1 350 V8 engine (with lots of very hard driving on it through hot summer weather too), and the LS1 and LT1 are similar enough that their oil needs are closely related (both are pushrod V8s with similar clearances, the LS1 being slightly tighter)

 

[Alex D]

Ohhhhhhhhhh don't get me started on Northstar engines ..... I had a 96 Eldorado ETC once and it had the two common oil leaks (crankshaft radial seal at trans flange side and the upper/lower crankcase mating surface (sealed by silicone bead only. It also used about 1.5 quarts every 1000 miles. when I bought it, it was under extended Cadillac certified warranty. After having the car towed four times to the dealer because of a misterious battery drain, they were left with no clue. i finally myself figured out that a faulty CD changer in teh trunk was the cause for the drain. it is hooked into the class II serial data line of the car and would arbitrarily wake up the system, which would drain the battery. Well got a new CD changer for free......
But now the oil story: After I complained about the oil leaks/consumption, they said that first they had to do an upper cylinder cleaning. For that the car was in the shop for three days and came back all oily from turning the engine over with the spark plugs out to clear the cleaner. So after that they wanted me to observe the oil consumption for 5,000 miles. I started doing that and asked about the leaks. they said that they would not touch those until the consumption issue was determined. I finally sold the car and sent them a letter that they don't have to pursue this warranty case any longer since i had sold the car. I also mentioned that I am certain I will never buy a Cadillac again.

I know Cadillac has improved the crank radial seal and also the proceedure for the silicone sealing of upper and lower crankcase halfs sometime and there are TSBs out for these problems as well as oil consumption, but just take a stroll into a used car lot and peek under cars with the Northstar.................see the wet spot under the oil pan!! .....about 60% of the Northstars still develop the leaks.....and burn oil like theri is no tomorrow.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Will:
Oh don't even get me started on Northstars burning oil, the pride of GM and its little secret

Our first engine was replaced under extended warranty at 60,000miles after its oil consumption got to a litre every 1000 miles

Our new engine has 40,000miles on it now and its thankfully holding up much better, a litre every 2500

The engine was flushed with some GM crankcase cleaner this spring and swapped to synthetic after my dad's insistance on using regular oil started to lead to the engine beginning to burn oil again. Mobil 1 10w30 was just as bad the first use but I since learned that LS1 guys liked to mix a little 15w50 to thicken it up and so thats what I've been doing. It actually went one oil change this summer, 3200 miles or so on the Mobil mix without topping up, though it needed topping up by oil change time.

Anyhow, has there been any feedback on the german syntec in LS1/Northstar engines?

I've also been wondering if I was religious about changing the oil frequently whether GTX High Mileage (which I use on my dad's 93 TransSport and my 92 3.4DOHC Grand Prix winter beater with much happiness) would be ok in these engines?

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[ January 04, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Alex D ]

 

[JohnnyG]

Please don't be tempted to use heavier oil in your Northstar. It will likely do more harm than good.
So, anyway, what's the difference in the LS1 & LT1? I currently have a '99 Silverado with a 6.0 L engine, and am about to pick up my new 2004 Silverado with the 5.3, is either of these the LS or LT? BTW, the 6.0 runs real well with Chevron Supreme 5W-30, actually quieter on startup than with CS 10W-30 (piston slap).

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnnyG:
Please don't be tempted to use heavier oil in your Northstar. It will likely do more harm than good.
So, anyway, what's the difference in the LS1 & LT1? I currently have a '99 Silverado with a 6.0 L engine, and am about to pick up my new 2004 Silverado with the 5.3, is either of these the LS or LT? BTW, the 6.0 runs real well with Chevron Supreme 5W-30, actually quieter on startup than with CS 10W-30 (piston slap).

---

The 5.3L engine in the Silverado is based on the LS1 5.7L, it's built in the same assembly plant too. It's basically a destroked and detuned version for trucks, using an iron block. The 6.0 truck engine is also based on the LS1 too I believe.

 

[JohnBrowning]

JohnnyG you would surely beat me to 140-145 but I can meet you their in my Camry. I would love to see a NS powered Cadilac with 300,000 miles on it not smokeing like a smoke generator on a landing craft! I am not buying that one!! Cylinders wear no matter how well cared for it is. DIsposable cars have engines like the NS. You simply throw them away when you are done consumeing them!

Their is a reason that Cadilac could not win at Lemans. The super charged NS just could not get it done and niether could it's chasis developers. SO now Cadilac is going to try SCCA in a CTS-V with a LS6 Corvette engine. It should be easy for them to make an already winning power train work in the Cadilac.

THe Fiero was actualy tested by GM with a turbo charged buick 3.8 in it at one point. It out performed the Corvette at the time and internal politics killed that. "Nothing Can Out Do the Corvette!!!!" Too bad because that engine with a better chasis tuneing would of made it a true player on even footing with the Toyota MR2 Turbo. Instead is was set up to fail and is now only like by hardcore cult like Fiero fanatics! Nothing like GM setting a car up to fail. I remeber a time when you could just follow one on the freeway makeing bets how long it would take before it caught fire. I helped a few friend find some parts for them and it is getting tough!

That might be a nice idea for GM to bring back the midship affordable sports car!!

 

[JohnnyG]

And you thought I could let it drop. Anyway, here is another quote from a Caddy board, which I said I wouldn't do, but feel that Northstars are getting a bad "RAP" around here. BTW, where are all these smoking Northstars? I've yet to see one with my own eyes!
This is from the engineer/designer of the Northstar engine.
Quote "There are a couple of million Northstar engines in the field. Neither I, nor anyone else, predict what will happen to each of them...

The engine is designed/developed/validated to run at full throttle/full load/6000 RPM flat out for 300 hours continuously. Trust me, I have lost track of the number of Northstar engines that I have seen complete this test sequence. 300 hours is a long time to run at 6000 RPM and full throttle on a dyno. They do it regularily.

There is no inherent "problem" or weakness that I know of that would cause a Northstar engine to fail at full load, at high RPM , etc.....

There is obviously a reason that there are techs in dealerships to work on engines and transmissions and other things... occasionally they break. Not that they were intentionally designed to break...but occasionally one does. Our warranty and quality feedback indicates that very few do...but...there is the occasional problem. Does that mean "all" of them will do that??? NO.

Personally, I would have absolutely no concern about running any Northstar engine to redline upshifts at full throttle....regardless of the miles on it.

As miles accumulate, do the chances of a problem showing up increase? Of course they do.

The engine "should" go 300K easily. Will "ALL" of them go 300K...??? NO. That is why vehicles wear out and are replaced. They get to be "used" as the miles accumulate and stuff happens.

Would I recommend the WOT treatment?? Of course. It sure beats pulling the cylinder heads or paying for a "de-carb" treatment, etc... Will a rare and random engine failure occur when running at WOT...???...of course. This is true of any engine. Period."
end quote. 300 hours, that's 12.5 days solid! Can your Toyota do that?

 

[Chris B.]

Cool info! I wonder if the LS1 can do that?

 

[jafo]

I think a certain % of all internal combustion engines will burn oil due to differences in mfr tolerances and different break-in practices/driving habits.And you wanna talk oil burners,I worked at a bmw dealer for many years,those mofo's burned some oil.They did have 10-15k oil change intervals,that might have something to do with it.

 

[JohnBrowning]

JonnyG, I do not know. I know this I have had multiple Toyotas hit 300,000 with out haveing to touch the engine. How many Cadilacs with NS engines have you had do this? I know that should I ever need to purchase a reman'ed engine for my car that their will be several places offering them. Can you buy a remaned NS? I can rebuild any toyota engine I have ever owned and parts are available in the aftermarket. Where can you buy the parts to rebuild your NS should it ever need it. I know that most Toyotas I have owned did not leak oil until they had in excess of 120,000 and in alot of cases 200,000 miles. I also know that for $17,000 dollars my car will out handles your, out brake it and has an engine that will out last your. I doubt that you got forged steel crank, forged steel rods, 4 valves per cylinder with variable vale timeing and variable lift. I am alos pretty sure that you did not get exotic alloy valves that are one piece design and have under cut stem and swirl polished. I am sure that GM has never used sodium filled exhaust valves on a cadilac.

That 300 hour test is swell. WOuld Cadilac do it publicly? Toyota show cased what would later become their Lexus 4.0 V8 the Franfurt Auto Show in 1989 I belive it was. They ran their V8 at Redline for the entire duration of the autoshow 24hours a day. I can not rember the duration of the show if it was one week or if it was more then that.

I also know that the Screaming Eagle team uses stock power train parts for their Lexus powered V8 race cars. THey only replace the crank and run them up to 11,000+ RPM's and are getting 800-1200 HP. THese are normaly asperated and run mechanical injection. PPI preps the engines for them and they designed the crank. The OEM crank throws were deveolping harmful harmonics past 10,000 RPM's. Lexus uses titanium rods and ballances their entire assembly to some insane standard of like .004 or .04 grams. I also know that Lexus does not have any problems with oil burning, oil leaking, knocking, non-rebuildable engine.

The NS is a second rate design. While it is a decent design it is anything but world class. They can not even get their cam phaseing working right.

Any one that has ever torn down world class engine can look at the NS and quickly see all of the design flaws. Tear down a few Lexus, Diamler, BMW, Porsche and Toyota engines and them come talk to me. I tear apart engine regularly!

Cadilac had the opertunity of a life time to design the perfect engine for their product line and this is the best they could do?

They should either drop this engine like a hot patato or fix all of the problems! I still think that they should just design a set of heads and pistons for the Gen III block and call it good.

P.S. Last I checked we did not have any lexus owners on the site complaining of oil consuption or wet spots on the ground? Last I checked Lexus was kicking Cadilacs butt all over the market place!

 

[radiometer]

Oh, John: You lay it on the line from your vast knowledge and experience. That serves us all very well. Good for you.

 

[JohnnyG]

Actually, this is my first Caddy with a NS so I never had any of them hit 300,000. There is a post on the Caddy boards that takes a poll of high mileage cars and there are many. You bring up a lot of interesting points in your post. Most of which go well beyond my personal knowledge of the NS design. I know my car does not leak a drop of oil, nor does it burn an amount in excess of it's design. I seriously doubt that your car will out handle an STS or out brake it. As far as the crank is concerned, it's more than likely steel and probably forged, but I just don't know. The connecting rods are made by a totally different process where "exotic" powdered metal is compressed under heat and fused into a material that has no stress and absorbs sound...superior to forged steel and stronger. I can't tell you either how the valves are made...all I know is NOBODY has ever had one fail....all 32 of them. Nobody said you couldn't get parts to rebuild a NS, just that it is recommended to replace the heads as a unit.
Your post mostly makes me wonder if all those "World Class" engine are so good.. why are you rebuilding so many of them?
If you want some replies to your "points" from someone that knows, ask them on the Caddy board. The link is around here somewhere. As far as the racing stuff goes, once again, ask sombody that knows.

 

[JohnBrowning]

JohnnyG lets just agree to disagree! I am acting my shoe size not my age! I have a low opion of this engine especialy for the price bracket that it comptes in. I am sure that most poeple will be totaly happy with the engine. Maintence is important as you pointed out so hopefully with the TLC you intend to give it you will get all the life you need to get out of it.

Sorry I was being so bull headed! I can get this way from time to time. I am slightly biased against GM for not useing their incredable resources to be the best they can be!!! This frustration can be miss directed at times!

P.S. I have access to every powertrain GM manufactures. I am well aware of the internals. I am speaking from experince with this engine.

[ January 11, 2004, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[JohnnyG]

OK I'll agree to your proposition. I know we were getting close to getting "dumped" for off-topic posts anyway.
I too get very frustrated by GM's seeming lack of reaction to the shortcomings of their autos. I realize of course that since the lawyers are running every american business now, that for GM to admit one fault would mean the end of the entire company, more than likely.
Well, at least we didn't get kicked off the board. It wouldn't be my first time for that.
BTW, did anyone in your family design the M1 Garand? The name thing y'know.

 

[JohnnyG]

OH, I almost forgot (and getting back on topic). I ran the Caddy up to Pittsburgh and back yesterday. Looks like the GC is a winner in this engine. Keep in mind that when I bought this car used it would use about 3/4 of a quart during this 300 mile run! Through diligent use of second gear runs to 85 mph or so then letting off and wide open throttle merges onto freeway on ramps, it appears that I have unstuck the rings. I'm sure it also helps to keep this motor oil level at the "ADD" mark when checking it cold. Yesterdays run appears to have used about 1 oz. of GC! Since the weather was very cold up here +8 F in the morning getting up to a high of +18 in mid afternoon, I will reserve my judgement on the fuel mileage. My computer told me that during highway cruising I was only getting 24.2 MPG. This car is good for 27.5 at highway using Mobil Drive Clean 10W-30 in the summer ( but this may have been with stuck rings).

 

[JohnnyO]

I changed the oil in Mom's Eldo on Friday. I put in 7 quarts and that took it right to the Add mark. Then punched up "storage mode" on the dash computer (Dad and Mom are in FL now for the winter). Kept a sample of the M1 for a UOA. This time I put in Valvoline Synthetic, $4 cheaper for a jug than M1 at Wally-World. Hey, I need two jugs. I change Mom's oil every six months, this time the Oil Life Indicator was down to 30%, approx 6k miles with 3 qts added. Then we'll compare the M1/M1 filter with the Valvo Syn/K&N filter. Guys on the Caddy boards seem to favor K&N and AC. I will note that on the Caddy it is bloody difficult getting the threads on the M1 and K&N filters to line up, it takes A LOT of tries, whereas an AC will screw right on every time no problem. Still can't find GC around where I live yet.

 

[Will]

I'll put some GC in the STS this week, get rid of the Mobil 1 mix currently in there which definitely I don't like anymore. The engine is very noisey at cold startup in our current temps. I'm close to trying GTX HM in it cause our 3.8 Trans Sport van loves it so much but since its winter I'll try the GC. I put GC in my GTP this weekend and its all happy again.

 

[JohnBrowning]

No, I just think John Browning was one of Americas most under rated an forgotten about engineers. I think that he was one of the greatest mechanical minds we ever had. I am preety sure that he was a genius and right up their with Edison.

P.S. He did not design the Garrand though. THe Garrand bears the inventors last name. The Garrand was and is a great piece of engineering!