Ford Super Duty Luxury Vehicles

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
We went in, she picked the car, we discussed price and trade. There was some negotiation and then we agreed on price. We went in to the finance guy and she said she wanted 0%. They ran the info, and printed out the contract with the same numbers we discussed.


Then you paid too much. Look, this isn't rocket science. I did the exact same thing. I found the new vehicle I wanted on the dealers lot. I had no trade in, or anything else to complicate the sale. We talked price. He asked how I was going to pay. I told him cash. (I knew they were offering "0% Financing" on that car before I went in). We went back and forth for over 20 minutes. He was getting disgusted with me. And I was just about ready to leave, when he finally agreed to the price I was willing to pay.

When he started with the paperwork I then told him I would prefer to go with the "0% Financing" deal they had plastered all over the front window. His reply?... "Not for that price we can't!" If he would have agreed, then I would have known I was paying too much..... Like you did.

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Oh, OK whatever you say.


It has nothing to do with what I say. Read the link I provided. These people have forgotten more about financing than you'll ever know. Do you think they're making this stuff up? As I said, the fact you're being so argumentative trying to convince me you got "a good deal", proves they did they're job. You're the one falling for the whole 0% financing scam. Then are turning around and raving about it here. And I'm the one who is "easily scammed"? And for what it's worth, I don't think I got a, "good deal". I just got screwed less than you did.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: billt460

Then you paid too much. Look, this isn't rocket science. I did the exact same thing. I found the new vehicle I wanted on the dealers lot. I had no trade in, or anything else to complicate the sale. We talked price. He asked how I was going to pay. I told him cash. (I knew they were offering "0% Financing" on that car before I went in). We went back and forth for over 20 minutes. He was getting disgusted with me. And I was just about ready to leave, when he finally agreed to the price I was willing to pay.

When he started with the paperwork I then told him I would prefer to go with the "0% Financing" deal they had plastered all over the front window. His reply?... "Not for that price we can't!" If he would have agreed, then I would have known I was paying too much..... Like you did.


Then you walk out. See how quickly they change their tune when they play those games. Unless it's some rare car there will be others you can purchase at the price you want to pay. Dealers that pull that stuff are not trustworthy.

My last 4 purchases they didn't care if I brought my own, used theirs, or paid cash. Didn't matter to them. Prices would have been the same or I would have walked. Heck when I bought the Taurus after the price was determined we discussed all the financing options and not once did the price change. Had it changed, I would have walked.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with what I say. Read the link I provided. These people have forgotten more about financing than you'll ever know. Do you think they're making this stuff up? As I said, the fact you're being so argumentative trying to convince me you got "a good deal", proves they did they're job. You're the one falling for the whole 0% financing scam. Then are turning around and raving about it here. And I'm the one who is "easily scammed"? And for what it's worth, I don't think I got a, "good deal". I just got screwed less than you did.


The link you provided was [censored] from some off the wall company that scares consumers. #'s 1-3 in that article didn't apply - we qualified, the payback period is affordable, there is no interest provision for nonpaymant. #4 didn't apply as the price we paid was the same we agreed on before financing was discussed so they didn't jack up the price to cover some mythical loss.

Now if you want to argue that the carmakers have jacked up MSRP to cover this financing that's another story entirely and not under the dealer's control.

Explain how it's a scam if we paid the same price we agreed on before discussing financing at all? Nothing to get scammed if the agreed on price had not changed no matter what the finance rate or source. How is that so hard to understand? Just because you got scammed doesn't mean everyone gets scammed.

As far as price, I saw the invoice on that particular vehicle and we got a good deal. Now whether or not it was made up or fake I don't know but the numbers were very close to the online sources of that data. Maybe not the best deal but it was a very good deal.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Explain how it's a scam if we paid the same price we agreed on before discussing financing at all?


I keep telling you, because "the price you agreed on", was too high in the first place. What did you expect him to do at that point? Kick you off the lot because you were willing to pay too much?

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Explain how it's a scam if we paid the same price we agreed on before discussing financing at all?


I keep telling you, because "the price you agreed on", was too high in the first place. What did you expect him to do at that point? Kick you off the lot because you were willing to pay too much?


Why was it too high? Like I said, I saw the invoice for the vehicle we bought. The price we paid was very close to that price. Maybe we could have went lower. Maybe the invoice shown with that VIN was fake, I don't know.

But I want to know how it was too high? Maybe I could have got into the holdback but they would have to have been desperate to make that sale.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Why was it too high?


I'm not going to keep typing this over and over. I've posted enough information on all of this..... Several times, for you to answer that question. You think you got a, "good deal". You think 0% Financing isn't a scam. If you're happy that's all that matters.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Why was it too high?


I'm not going to keep typing this over and over. I've posted enough information on all of this..... Several times, for you to answer that question. You think you got a, "good deal". You think 0% Financing isn't a scam. If you're happy that's all that matters.


You've provided NOTHING OF THE SORT. You provided something from some obscure site that says you're getting screwed with 4 points. None of those apply - I went through how that was not the case.

Simple scenario.
I find car A - invoice is $20000 from what I gather on the Internet.
I go in to dealer X and say I want Car A for $20000. They say yes.
I go to finance guy and say I want car A for $20000 at 0% from Manufacturer's credit arm. I qualify and sign papers for $20000.

Where did I overpay?

You maybe can argue the the MANUFACTURER jacks up the price to account for the 0% but that's a stretch at best. I know how they make money on these deals. It's a loss leader for the MFG. They know most won't qualify as the credit score requirements are high. They know that the rebates + interest is a better deal for most with little downpayments, etc. In short they will do them for a very small % of customers. Just like the high end luxury trucks that the OP was discussing.

Sure dealers get kickbacks and the best way to go in is "I have financing from my bank at xx% and will use you if you beat it.". Last time I did that they beat our credit union and got me 2.9% for 60 months on a used truck.

So tell me how I paid too much and how to pay less in the future since you have all the answers. Sounds like you got screwed and think it applies everywhere.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Why was it too high?


I'm not going to keep typing this over and over. I've posted enough information on all of this..... Several times, for you to answer that question. You think you got a, "good deal". You think 0% Financing isn't a scam. If you're happy that's all that matters.

The issue is that often to the dealer, the manufacturer offering 0% financing doesn't change the price they pay for the vehicle. So to the dealer 0% financed or cash upfront makes no difference to their cost... Offering 0% financing costs the manufacturer more money, but if they don't pass that cost onto the dealer for that specific sale, the dealer won't transfer the cost to that customer.

I do see ads though were the manufacturer offers a rebate for cash OR 0% financing, but I don't think that is always the case and I don't know how the buyer would know if its not advertised?
I guess the assumption you could make, is that any time 0% is offered, there's money available from the manufacturer to the dealer on a cash sale? If so, you'd probably get more pressure from the sales team to pay in cash, but that doesn't seem to happen often.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
You've provided NOTHING OF THE SORT.


http://www.bcsalliance.com/zero_percent_financing.html

"Even if you do qualify for zero percent financing, sellers often make up for the lost profits by jacking up the price of the product. They can do this quite easily because the customer is so thrilled with the zero percent financing that he forgets or overlooks the fact that he is overpaying for the product. This is particularly true of automobile purchases and furniture.

https://www.dmv.org/buy-sell/auto-loans/zero-percent-financing.php

"Unfortunately, there are several cons -- or disadvantages -- to opting for zero percent financing, and they affect each buyer differently. Typically, there's little-to-no room for price negotiation when you're offered 0% APR.

https://fiscalfizzle.com/2011/06/02/zero-percent-financing-problems/

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/your-money/article-5-reasons-you-should-stay-away-from-0-schemes-317353

"If you qualify for zero-percent financing, negotiating a lower price on the vehicle may be more challenging."

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/zero-percent-financing-_-financial-fact-or-fiction/

As I keep telling you, YOU PAID TOO MUCH.

 

[itguy08]

LOTS OF MAYBES and Could be or CAN's there. You do have to be careful and be firm but again, in the scenario:

I find car A - invoice is $20000 from what I gather on the Internet.
I go in to dealer X and say I want Car A for $20000. They say yes.
I go to finance guy and say I want car A for $20000 at 0% from Manufacturer's credit arm. I qualify and sign papers for $20000.

Where did I overpay?

Maybe I got lucky 4x from various dealerships but the price I paid was in no way, shape, or form, tied to financing. One I got a "smoking" deal (published invoice price) AND brought my own financing.

Now where one may overpay is where the finance guy says 0%, ok, it will be $21000 and papers are signed reflecting that. Smart people read and walk if that were to happen.

Smart people negotiate everything first and then discuss payment. They are separate transactions (as are trades). Why is that so hard for you to understand? You do realize a cash sale is $0 profit to the dealer from financing right? Same as 0% from the manufacturer as they get no kickback. Using your logic, paying cash will mean you paid too much too.


From the KBB article:
Quote:
Although this may happen, a reputable dealership will be open to negotiating the deal before applying the zero-percent financing to your sale. As always, we recommend you do your homework before buying.


Any dealer that jacks up the price depending on financing and is not reputable and you walk out.

 

[itguy08]

On the cash vs financing front:
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/26/car-dealer-shopping-tips/

Quote:
One issue to factor in is whether or not you intend to pay cash. (If only all of us should be so lucky to have that kind of coin lying around.) If you do intend to pay cash, Bill tells us that's something you may not want to say right up front.

"When dealers are negotiating the purchase price, they anticipate making money on the back end, via financing," Bill explains. "So if you tell them up front you're paying cash, the dealer knows he has no opportunity to make money off you from financing. So, he might not be as moveable on purchase price if he already knows he isn't going to make any money off you from financing."



http://www.realcartips.com/cardealers/105-paying-for-a-car-in-cash.shtml

Your "story" about buying that car doesn't pass the smell test...

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Any dealer that jacks up the price depending on financing and is not reputable and you walk out.


In your case there was no need for him to, "jack up the price". The price you were willing to pay completely satisfied him. So much so he didn't bat an eyelash at tossing in the 0% financing. His money was already made, thanks to your generous offer. You made his day easy. No wonder he was smiling.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Your "story" about buying that car doesn't pass the smell test...


I'll go slow this time. I walked into the dealership. I had cash, and wanted to purchase an over $50K vehicle he had sitting on his lot. I had no trade in, and I was not interested in any kind of financing. 0% or otherwise. It couldn't get any simpler. He had the product. I had the money. We went back and forth over price. And after much haggling, he was willing to take what I was willing to pay. He knew good and well that no one else was going to walk in behind me and give him a better offer that day. And there were plenty of other dealerships nearby who would be more than willing to sell me a car if he didn't. So he agreed to the price.

I then bought the car. Before he started in with the paperwork, I tried to get him to give me the 0% deal. I knew he wouldn't, but I saw no harm in asking. After all, we had already agreed on the purchase price, just like you did. He told me there was no way he could give me 0% financing with the price we had already agreed upon.

The reason should be pretty obvious. Even to someone like you. Just like all the links I've given you have stated. You have far less room to negotiate a good price with 0% financing. I proved it. You proved nothing, because the price you agreed to was too high. So he gave you the 0%, because you made his day so easy. His money was already made. The only thing that smells here, is your failing to catch on to a well known scam. Your salesman was good. He slipped it right in, and you didn't feel a thing. You probably shook his hand on the way out, didn't you? And then told your neighbors what a "good deal" you got, just like you did me..... Right?

 

[itguy08]

Your story is complete [censored].

A cash sale means the dealer makes $0 off of financing. It's a cash sale.
A 0% financing from the manufacturer makes the dealer $0 off financing. They get no kickbacks.

Perhaps the model you were buying didn't qualify, you wanted 0% for a length that was not offered, the rebate + 0%, or some other detail you are leaving out. The terms are quite narrow and often for short periods of time. But your story doesn't pass the smell test.

If I'm making $0 it doesn't matter how I sell it to you as long as I make the sale.

Your story is Bravo Sierra. Sounds like the only sucker is you as you fell into the "we can't sell it to you at that price" trap. Or you got screwed and don't want to admit it.

What probably happened is your "Great deal" included all the rebates and incentives to get to that low number. The 0% was in leiu of all that, an either or situation. So you negotiated a deal with all the available rebates and tried to do 0% on top of all that when the offer was most likely 0% OR the rebates. So yes, he couldn't do that deal because it was below his cost.

Now which is a better deal is something that depends on the rebates, interest rate, down payment, etc.

I think you need a reading comprehension class.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Nothing shown here has demonstrated that 0% and a good deal are mutually exclusive. It's possible, and does happen.

Volume dealers are all about making their money by giving away as many cars as possible. Negotiating a tight deal with financing is not impossible.

Being a tough negotiator helps as well.

0% is not about making money on the front end. It's about getting someone into the financing system who is terribly likely to simply pass on a bank altogether and lay down cash. Equivalent of free samples in a supermarket.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
A cash sale means the dealer makes $0 off of financing. It's a cash sale.


The first thing you need to realize, that you obviously don't have a clue about, is that car dealers have multiple ways to screw you. 1.) First they try to screw you on the purchase price. 2.) Then, they screw you over on your trade in, by giving you as little as possible. 3.) Then, they turn you over to the finance manager, and he gives you the third and final screwing. You managed to get all 3 nice and deep.

I eliminated #2 and #3. Money talks and B.S. walks. Always has, and always will. Secondly, I purchased a car they had sitting in their inventory. It was costing them money every day that vehicle was parked there. Had I ordered the same exact vehicle, I would have paid more. I had no trade in. I walked in, and drove out. No financing. No trade in. No "incentives". Pick the car, negotiate the best cash price, and write the check. I doesn't get any quicker or easier for a dealership. It took them longer to wash and "prep" the vehicle then it did for me to buy it.

Car dealers are no different than real estate agents. They love cash deals because they know they're financially solid. There is no loan to fall apart in underwriting, and be rejected. And today many are. Write the check, sign on the bottom line, and you and they are done. Quick and easy. And everyone goes away happy. So don't be so foolish and naive to think all of that doesn't get you a better deal. It does.

 

[itguy08]

First of all before you lecture anyone on what they do or do not know, I suggest you know how it all works. You obviously do not.

I'm well aware of how you get screwed at a car dealer, thanks. Which is why you go in with all your ducks in a row. I managed to get none nice and deep, thanks for your concern.

Again you can negotiate everything. Even on an ordered car. In Sept, 2003 I ordered an Infiniti G35 Sedan 6MT loaded for invoice price. Even got them to write "Deposit refundable" on it should I not have sold my then current vehicle. That was darn near invoice price on a relatively hot car (it just won MT's CoTY) on a vehicle that took 4 months to cross the Pacific. No trade. No discussion of financing (I brought my own), no nothing.

What you are missing is the fact that the 0% usually is on a narrow range of models and is often not to be combined with any other offers. Your final # which you are so proud of most likely included all those rebates. So much for your "negotiating skills".

You obviously know that the dealer gets kickback from the banks for financing. And that they are based on the base rate the bank will write the loan for and the difference in what you sign for. So a 0% finance buyer and a cash buyer net the dealer $0. There is no financial incentive for them to prefer one over the other. What you got is more rebates for paying cash. Something, based on your "know it all"-ness the dealer probably didn't want to be bothered to explain to you (since you know it all). If anything the transaction prices between the 2 may be similar as there is no incentive for the dealer to discount $0 additional profit.

Not too familiar with real estate. But when we bought and sold our houses we were pre qualified even before making an offer. When we sold the buyers were in the same boat. Our only choice at sale was which offer was better. Cash vs non-cash really didn't enter in the equation.

Don't be so foolish and naive to believe cash automatically gets you a better deal. It doesn't, especially when there's incentive for the seller to push someething that nets them extra $$.

 

[billt460]

You could over complicate a cup of coffee with all of your rambling nonsense. You keep posting pages of blather. All in some half baked attempt trying to qualify the fact you went the long way around the barn. And in the process.... paid too much. Buying a car is not a Space Shuttle launch. Regardless of how much you try to make it one.

You have link after link in front of you. All from different financial sources. With every one of them saying the exact same thing I've been telling you for several pages now. 0% financing limits your ability to negotiate a good price. You obviously don't want to accept that fact, because you were taken in by it. Now you've been reduced to rambling on and on, trying to convince everyone you are the exception to that rule. It's not working. I can tell by the way you're talking, you've never paid cash for a new vehicle. Let alone buy one without a trade in. Yet you are trying to tell me all about a process you've never experienced.

Dealers absolutely love guys like you. Because you think you can play their game better than they can. You come in off the street requiring borrowed money to purchase the product they're trying to sell you. And you're going to borrow this money from them, using their terms. And if that isn't bad enough, you bring along a trade in so they've got even more room to squeeze you with. Then you think you can use their "incentives" they are "offering you", to your advantage. You have loaded their gun for them, with all the ammunition they need. Then you think you can manipulate all of it to your advantage. You've convinced me. Now the only one left to convince is yourself. I'm seeing from all of the pages of defensive nonsense you're typing here, you're finding that to be a bit more difficult. I can understand why.

 

[itguy08]

It's obvious the one with the blather problem is you.

You have to play by narrow rules and follow them exactly to get what you want. None of it is easy but can be done if you follow the rules.

I know what I've done and what the costs associated with that are. I've not paid cash (no need to when the $$ is free) but have done a no trade deal as I outlined.

You still have not explained how the sales price differs between cash, 0%, and some percent at a "decent" dealer.

YOU PAID TOO MUCH BY PAYING CASH. Why? Because you could have let the dealer sell you the car for cheaper by financing it (as they make profit) and then paying it off when the first payment is due. So the one who needs some education is YOU CNN Car Buying Tactics : 1. If you plan on paying cash, don't say so until after you've negotiated the purchase price.

Could have easily paid cash. But it's easier to use someone else's free money while making 4-6% elsewhere.

Good Day Sir, I'm done arguing this with you.

 

[billt460]

Blah, blah. You're as boring as watching latex paint dry in humidity.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Every car sale is a cash deal to the dealer. They get a check for the full amount of the sale no matter whether you financed it or not. They also always get something for financing, ALWAYS, even if it is zero percent. The only way to beat that is to bring in your own. I always get a draft from my CU which works for whatever limit I set on it. My last loan in 14 was at less than 1%.