Fluoride number one cause of death?

[PandaBear]

The ground water here is "safe" but the amount of mineral deposit makes it not worth drinking to me. I'd use it for boiling pasta but I'd not use it to cook soup or drink from the tap. I'd use RO filtered water for sure. Carbon filter like Britta won't cut it.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think city tap water is as clean and healthy as some suggest or that bottled water is always worse.

Bottled water like Dasani and Aquafina for example is city water that is further filtered and purified and is what the soda bottlers use. I doubt it would have more contaminates in it. The bottlers have a lot of expensive equipment and a products' reputation to maintain.

So is flouride safe or not? What about chlorine? There are a lot of susbstance and chemicals present and allowed for in tap water, even medication residues in some cases.

I drink mostly from gallons of Nestle Pure life water. I really like Fiji water but can't justify the price. Am I tin-foiled-hatted for believing that city water isn't very pure and bottled water is better?


Fluoride safe or not? My personal take on it....the fluoride thing is because the ag is using municipal water the fluoride over time may become or will be a problem in the soil since it can't break down fast enough even through organic means, it's not a natural thing. Time catches up. Ag uses the most water far less than residential consumption.

For the organic growers ... California is #1 in the nation...

 

[spock1]

Man!This subject has been the most entertaining and hilarious in quite a while.Thanks for making it so much fun.

 

[antiqueshell]

The thing is that LOGICALLY there is NO good reason to ADD ANY fluoride to our drinking water, NO conclusive studies have EVER provided sufficient proof that it will strengthen teeth. The fact that they ever got away with putting it into our water is nothing short of outrageous.

I consider this a criminal act.

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
The thing is that LOGICALLY there is NO good reason to ADD ANY fluoride to our drinking water, NO conclusive studies have EVER provided sufficient proof that it will strengthen teeth. The fact that they ever got away with putting it into our water is nothing short of outrageous.

I consider this a criminal act.


It's definitely criminal..someone should pay for turning a lot of us into meek,submissive, and sick,fluoride heads.
There is absolutely NO excuse for poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
How do we convince our Lame Duck politicians and their paid for
"scientist"?We can probably start by educating our friends and relatives and make them" see the light"
We have to act quickly before we turn into a bunch of halfwits.

 

[calvin1]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
For example chlorine is used in the the Pearl basin, it's a shallow basin but also the largest source. Pollution is seeping from Pearl Harbor. Well they tells us some chlorine is added...PS I don't drink that water from that area even with a carbon filter since I have a choice. A new water source drilled 5 miles deep will replace the Pearl basin for home usage and the Pearl for other uses. I know for a fact how much chlorine is dump into the water source but just don't tell the public about it just say well we add chlorine but the concentration of chlorine is not the same in geographic areas since all the water sources are connected. By comparison the Pearl basin well I'll take that water over in California. California is another matter, their ag may have problems in their soil 30-50 years down the road, mainly because of what's in their water source ... same water residents drink? Hawaii sees California.

By comparison Hawaii has one of the most cleanest water source because of the trade winds that brings moisture to the Islands with almost no air pollutants from rain water. It's an Island.
They had to drill 5 miles for water? Also, aren't you guys down-wind of Fukushima?

 

[mechanicx]

The local news just had a story that a local CVS mixed up flouride pills prescribed for a parent's kids with some type of estrogen pill. So they actually prescribe children flouride pills lol?

 

[antiqueshell]

I wonder how many of you know that sodium fluoride is a active ingredient in things like Prozac, and other psychotropic drugs.

It is also an ingredient in .....RAT POISON, and the Nazis put this in the water in the concentration camps to keep the prisoners docile. Now what do you think?

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Buickman, so you are in favour of compulsory community medication...

yes or no ?

What other medications would you accept being added to the water ?


When are you going to concede that your claim of fluoridation of water is the same as putting Nazi mind control Prozac in the water? Also is the planet conspiring against us since most drinking water naturally contains Nazi mind control Prozac?

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Whether any of this is true or not, I find it amazing that today with EPA all over toxic environmental poisons,this one gets the nod.


Try releasing it in the wastewater of your power station and see if the EPA cares...it's one of the reportable pollutants, and paid for under load based licencing.


Oh no you didn't. LOL.

Hydrofluoric acid or more succinctly, a solution hydrogen fluoride in water is the regulated discharge. What it is not, is one of the following which are the sources used for fluoridation of water:

Sodium fluoride is NaF.
Fluorosilicic acid is H2SiF6.
Sodium fluorosilicate of fluoride is Na2SiF6.

I'll repeat this again. Just because something has "fluor" in its name does not mean that it has the same molecular structure and properties of other compounds containing "fluor" in their names.

For example, sodium is a metal that reacts explosivly with water. Combined in the form of NaCl, it will not blow up in my mouth. Likewise sodium chloride will not poison me but sodium fluoroacetate (FCH2CO2Na), sodium hydroxide (NaOH), and sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) are not too good for me.

Either stop being disingenuous if that is the case or admit that basic chemistry concepts are not your forte.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
people who blindly accept that their water is 'clean' due to the regulations imposed by the government are just as gullible as anyone wearing a tinfoil hat.

I've opened my tap in a house in Florida and seen colored water come out. MMMMM, drink up. Don't you feel safe?

You just know that all those dedicated gov't employees are out there protecting you....aren't they?

I was wondering when you'd comment on the subject.

I feel perfectly safe since I don't buy into scaremongering, half-truths and conspiracy theories.

Specifically addressing the "colored water" issue. I had that at my house about 3 weeks ago. I turned on the tap and the water had a slight brown tint. After smelling it and then drinking a couple of mouthfuls to taste test it (OMG!) I had a good idea of what was going on so I called the water department. I asked if they had had a water main break in the area that they recently repaired. They checked and confirmed that about an hour prior they had just put a main back in service after fixing a leak less than 2 blocks from my house. I thanked them and hung up.

Why wasn't I concerned? Because I know that when there is a water main break, they typically have to spot chlorinate the new main before putting it back into service. The rusty water is partially the result of physical disturbence but mostly the result of the excess free chlorine which interacts with the iron in the pipes causing some of the build up to release in to the water. What it was was no more than a high amount of iron in the water. The same thing happens when fire hydrants aren't properly flushed though in that case it is from the turbulence introduced to the system. After about an iron the problem goes away once enough people have flushed toilets or taken a shower. Its perfectly safe to drink though not great if you've got whites in the laundry at the time.

As for trusting the dedicated gov't employees? Sure. I know what the reporting requirements are as well as the penalties. The head of a water treatment system for a city isn't going to sign off on falsified water quality reports. There is no incentive to do so. There are plenty of disincentives. Hefty fines and prison time along with a permanent loss of your water operators license come to mind. If you think someone holding (their state's equivalent) of a grade 4 operators license along with most likely a grade 2 or 3 distribution license is going to risk those you're nuts. In this state alone, there are only about 115 people that hold a grade 4 license as they are very difficult to obtain since you have to know the ins and outs of all the state regs, know the chemistry behind specific types of water treatment, and be able to do all the necessary flow calculations.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think city tap water is as clean and healthy as some suggest or that bottled water is always worse.


Read the annual water quality report that must be given to you by your municipality. I can't recall if they are required to mail them or not, but they show up here every summer in the mail.

Quote:
Bottled water like Dasani and Aquafina for example is city water that is further filtered and purified and is what the soda bottlers use. I doubt it would have more contaminates in it.


The "big names" are usually okay. Its the local outfits where you typically see problems. Primarily their problems come from the elimination of all the free chlorine in the water. When you do this, you run the risk of contamination from coliforms as there is nothing to keep them in check should any get inadvertently introduced during the bottling process.

I do find it odd that you'll trust a private company that is out to maximize profits and who's product isn't as tightly regulated as tap water over a public utility that isn't profit driven. Neither one is necessarily any more or lest trustworthy than the other, but one is certainly more tightly regulated.

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The ground water here is "safe" but the amount of mineral deposit makes it not worth drinking to me. I'd use it for boiling pasta but I'd not use it to cook soup or drink from the tap. I'd use RO filtered water for sure. Carbon filter like Britta won't cut it.

I like the mineral content as it improves the taste. They're using RO and ozone to treat the water where I currently live. The taste is terrible. I'll take the sand filtered water of my hometown any day. A little bit of iron and calcium go a long way to improving taste though it does of course raise the hardness of the water.

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I wonder how many of you know that sodium fluoride is a active ingredient in things like Prozac, and other psychotropic drugs.

It is also an ingredient in .....RAT POISON, and the Nazis put this in the water in the concentration camps to keep the prisoners docile. Now what do you think?


I wonder if this was already addressed???

Quote:

The active ingredient in Prozac is fluoxetine hydrochloride. This is C17H18F3NO•HCl.

Sodium fluoride is NaF.
Fluorosilicic acid is H2SiF6.
Sodium fluorosilicate is Na2SiF6.

The three chemicals used for fluoridation are chemically different than the compound used in Prozac.


Yep it was and so was the Nazi nonsense.

Good lord, did no one take basic chemistry? And specifically for sodium fluoride does no one understand LDL and LD50 levels as well as mg/L etc?

Heck, caffeine has a LD50.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: calvin1
Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
For example chlorine is used in the the Pearl basin, it's a shallow basin but also the largest source. Pollution is seeping from Pearl Harbor. Well they tells us some chlorine is added...PS I don't drink that water from that area even with a carbon filter since I have a choice. A new water source drilled 5 miles deep will replace the Pearl basin for home usage and the Pearl for other uses. I know for a fact how much chlorine is dump into the water source but just don't tell the public about it just say well we add chlorine but the concentration of chlorine is not the same in geographic areas since all the water sources are connected. By comparison the Pearl basin well I'll take that water over in California. California is another matter, their ag may have problems in their soil 30-50 years down the road, mainly because of what's in their water source ... same water residents drink? Hawaii sees California.

By comparison Hawaii has one of the most cleanest water source because of the trade winds that brings moisture to the Islands with almost no air pollutants from rain water. It's an Island.
They had to drill 5 miles for water? Also, aren't you guys down-wind of Fukushima?


Yes 5 miles deep, fresh water sitting on sea water. Huge pocket about 20-25 miles from seashore. Lots of mountain rain. How many years does it take rain water to filter down to that depth, a hundred years.

As far as the fluoride thing....well a dentist and physicians may have strong expert opinions in their field...but are they seeing the agriculture view points.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Buickman, so you are in favour of compulsory community medication...

yes or no ?

What other medications would you accept being added to the water ?


When are you going to concede that your claim of fluoridation of water is the same as putting Nazi mind control Prozac in the water? Also is the planet conspiring against us since most drinking water naturally contains Nazi mind control Prozac?


Gee you like to make stuff up, don't you ?

Can't argue your own points, so you make up something that I never said or implied ?

Show me where I mentioned the words NAZI and concentration camps and fluoride anywhere in this thread...anywhere ???

Unless you are using the "prozac" (note, not the statins I also mentioned, and it could also have been loceryl or Tamoxifen) to build your NAZI strawman and get all indignant.

I am asking a simple question, which doesn't require me to deny YOUR putting words in my mouth for you to answer.

Do YOU believe in mandatory community medication pure and simple ?

It's the core of the debate, not the safety or otherwise of a medication that they DO add to the water.

By and of the Government, in a supposedly free society, that values personal responsibility.

Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Whether any of this is true or not, I find it amazing that today with EPA all over toxic environmental poisons,this one gets the nod.


Try releasing it in the wastewater of your power station and see if the EPA cares...it's one of the reportable pollutants, and paid for under load based licencing.


Oh no you didn't. LOL.

Hydrofluoric acid or more succinctly, a solution hydrogen fluoride in water is the regulated discharge. What it is not, is one of the following which are the sources used for fluoridation of water:

Sodium fluoride is NaF.
Fluorosilicic acid is H2SiF6.
Sodium fluorosilicate of fluoride is Na2SiF6.

I'll repeat this again. Just because something has "fluor" in its name does not mean that it has the same molecular structure and properties of other compounds containing "fluor" in their names.


Mate, the reference was to the EPA, I answered.

EPA don't give a rat's freckle of the chemical compound...they measure fluoride in the wastewater, and charge a load based licence on the total fluoride emissions.

Same as whether the Mercury is vapour, chloride, or thimoseryl...they don't care what the compound is, as it's an element in the environment, and the compounds WILL change, as they encounter things such as pH change and other anions/cations.

Your assertion of HF is ridiculous, as anyone with the most basic understanding of chemistry knows that HF finds other stuff to attach to, and is rapidly not HF anymore.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: buickman50401
He also neglected to mention there is zero risk of dental fluorosis for anyone who has their adult teeth in and that the risk is for those 3mo to age 8.


And you failed to mention that what happens after that is skeletal fuorosis, which can occur with excess of 6mg per day intake (total...water, toothpaste, food, green and black tea)...above that increased risk of bone fractures in adults.

And as I said before, and I quoted the authorities, The American DENTAL association, and CDC feel strongly enough to halve their recommended water treat rate...they obviously don't trivialise "a mild discolouring" of teeth, and the recommendation to use reduced fluoride toothpaste with the children, and to "ensure" that they spit and rinse and don't swallow.

Why anybody thinks that a topical treatment (when was the last time a dentist gave you a fluoride injection) works systemically is beyond me.

And it doesn't. A 20% reduction in tooth decays doesn't seem to make the infrastructure all that worthwhile, when your oral health is your own responsibility.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: buickman50401

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think city tap water is as clean and healthy as some suggest or that bottled water is always worse.


Read the annual water quality report that must be given to you by your municipality. I can't recall if they are required to mail them or not, but they show up here every summer in the mail.


I have seen the municipal water report and there were several chemicals and various contaminates in the water. I don't think they were over the allowed limits but I'd rather not drink them just the same. I'm not sure how healthy it is to be drinking chlorine alone.

Quote:
Quote:
Bottled water like Dasani and Aquafina for example is city water that is further filtered and purified and is what the soda bottlers use. I doubt it would have more contaminates in it.


The "big names" are usually okay. Its the local outfits where you typically see problems. Primarily their problems come from the elimination of all the free chlorine in the water. When you do this, you run the risk of contamination from coliforms as there is nothing to keep them in check should any get inadvertently introduced during the bottling process.

I do find it odd that you'll trust a private company that is out to maximize profits and who's product isn't as tightly regulated as tap water over a public utility that isn't profit driven. Neither one is necessarily any more or lest trustworthy than the other, but one is certainly more tightly regulated.


It's not a question of trusting a private producer over a public utility for me. One product is city water and the other is city water (or well or spring water) that has been further purified. It's a matter of paying more for a more refined and purified product. I'm not going to contest whether bottled water producers are less regulated, but like I said I think legitimate suppliers start of with city water and end up with a more purified product and the water losing its chlorination is probably not a bad trade off. A lot of people have drank from well water that is non-chloronated and find their water is healthy and superior in quality.

I will say this much though in general terms, the gov is essentially self regulated, so in a sense I trust a regulated private business more than a self regulated agency. I've seen agencies break their own rules with impunity. And actually my public water department is a profit generating monopoly. My brother was an engineer for the water department and it's full of incompetent jerks but that's not really here or there other than I don't see them as being particularly more trustworthy than anyone else.

 

[Shannow]

Our local Govt entity had employees recieving I-Phones from chemical companies for using up to 1,000 times too much of something in water treatment.

They won't state the chemical, the treat rate, or whether it was drinking water or waste water...don't know why.

Local coal mines pump 2M gallons a day of waste mine water into our local drinking water supply dam every day...all at "safe" levels of heavy metals and hydrocarbons of course.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: spock1
Man!This subject has been the most entertaining and hilarious in quite a while.Thanks for making it so much fun.

Exactly.

And for me nothing has changed. Municipal drinking water is safe...Nazi Mind controllers not withstanding.

Anyone that concerned that they have the time to complain and a computer to type on could in that amount of time go down to Lowes and buy a RO unit to install and save their family from the Water Nazis...end of story.

 

[javacontour]

How can you determine the causes? There are so many factors. In the 40's through I believe the 60's we had ABOVE GROUND nuclear testing. How many of these cancer deaths were caused by results from that.

My question is with all the potential factors, how can we pick out one or two "pet factors" and say this is causing higher death rates?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
How about this for the conspiracy theorists? Think of all the people who were born in the 50's and 60's that died at early ages from cancer. I know a lot of them, and heard and read that vaccinations they got as children might have been a cause for some of the cancers responsible for their deaths. Food for thought.

 

[calvin1]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
Yes 5 miles deep, fresh water sitting on sea water. Huge pocket about 20-25 miles from seashore.
Link/source/pointer?

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: buickman50401

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think city tap water is as clean and healthy as some suggest or that bottled water is always worse.


Read the annual water quality report that must be given to you by your municipality. I can't recall if they are required to mail them or not, but they show up here every summer in the mail.


I have seen the municipal water report and there were several chemicals and various contaminates in the water. I don't think they were over the allowed limits but I'd rather not drink them just the same. I'm not sure how healthy it is to be drinking chlorine alone.


That was my point. You said, "I'm not sure if...". If you take the time to read the water quality reports and decide there is something not to your liking and then make a decision based on that (like you did) its a case of making an informed decision.

I've seen some reports that would make me think twice about using tap water in a couple of municipalities for drinking or cooking.

The difference is between making an informed decision versus going off half cocked relying on conspiracy theories and the assumption that tap water is always of poorer quality than bottled.

Quote:

Bottled water like Dasani and Aquafina for example is city water that is further filtered and purified and is what the soda bottlers use. I doubt it would have more contaminates in it.


Quote:

It's not a question of trusting a private producer over a public utility for me. One product is city water and the other is city water (or well or spring water) that has been further purified. It's a matter of paying more for a more refined and purified product.


The assumption is that it is a more purified product, but the lack of regulation brings that assumption into question particularly with local producers.

Quote:
A lot of people have drank from well water that is non-chloronated and find their water is healthy and superior in quality.


You don't need chlorine for a personal well if its free of bacteria and other biological contaminants as it comes out from the well. Chlorine is however needed for distribution even in municipalities with water that is pristine straight out of their wells because of the possibility of contamination once its out into the distribution system. That is why "free chlorine" levels are monitored. It is the amount of residual chlorine available to take care of any contaminants that get into the system. There are a variety of ways they can get it, but the most common is leaks in mains or services to houses/businesses. There is also backflow contamination that can occur.

Regarding "superior in quality", one thing that private wells have to worry more about is nitrates. They are at risk because of the shallowness of the wells compared to those used by municipalities. The private wells are also usually more vulnerable to contamination by flooding or run-off.

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: spock1
Man!This subject has been the most entertaining and hilarious in quite a while.Thanks for making it so much fun.

Exactly.

And for me nothing has changed. Municipal drinking water is safe...Nazi Mind controllers not withstanding.

Anyone that concerned that they have the time to complain and a computer to type on could in that amount of time go down to Lowes and buy a RO unit to install and save their family from the Water Nazis...end of story.


It's called "White People Problems". You know you've got it tough when you can't trust the water coming out of your tap [that is required to meet EPA standards].