Fluid dyamics discussion - someone educate me.....

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
What's in red text above is a point we don't see the same. For one thing, WIX never qualified their "2 PSID" comment. I'm assuming they would mean on the "typical" Grandpa car driven like a Grandpa. That's all fine and dandy. You have locked into your mind that this is the way it always is ... and don't consider all the conditions that could give a potentially higher filter PSID.


So ..you're now ADMITTING THAT GARY'S RIGHT?????

Well, just when does Gary's right evaporate and Soupy's right take hold

Just when?


You're obviously in a non comprehensive state. You think that comment of mine above is admitting that you are always right? ... not even close - you are still wrong on some pretty easy to see issues. Ya, I've agreed many, many times that in most cases the filter PSID is probably pretty small, and the filter hardly ever goes into bypass mode on most Grandpa vehicles ... if I had a dollar for every time I said it, I could buy you another keg of brew.

I've qualified this over and over, but you're in some kind of zombie state and not picking this fact up. But someone else that's a "Gary buddy" on the board says the same thing and your all over and agreeing like flies on [censored]. It's amazing ... really quite comical actually.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You dispute everything I say on a totally conceptual level ..then concede to it in another post ..then argue against it in another. Back and forth. Now you're retreating into the sanctuary of ultra high volume (yes, with your beloved hot oil added in there too).

So ..essentially, you're going to jerk back and forth endlessly ..post your charts to make points that you later don't mean ..


..etc..etc..etc.

GOD LOVES YOU, SOUPY!!!!!!

I only dispute the concepts you can't grasp, and the ones you contradict yourself on ... I notice you don't seem to address those, but just ignore them and let them slide by. There is much that we agree on ... in case you haven't noticed.

The real problem with our little debates is that you can't comprehend what's going on half the time in these discussions. I'm sure other people with a more technical (engineering background), a better memory and a longer attention span can make it all out just fine.

BTW ... I can always tell when your are smoked and getting your arse whipped when you start going off track with your stupid nicknames and other moronic antics.

 

[Gary Allan]

GOD STILL LOVES YOU ..and so do I, pal

 

[Gary Allan]

I wanted to resurrect this thread in an attempt to demonstrate my view here. This may clear some things up.


Givens: 100 psi limit on the oil pump
Visc: don't care - pick a number
Volume: don't care - pick a number
Relief capacity: Assume unlimited for the moment.

Filter: Assume NO FILTER for the moment.


Okay. We're in relief and 50% of the flow is being shunted. In this case, the engineer was a bone head and made the relief port twice the size of the main outlet port. He wanted to assure that 100psi is never exceeded.

What is our reading with a 100psi relief with FIFTY PERCENT reduced flow to the engine, a 50:50 split??

100psi

It will be the same at any fraction of total pump output. Anything, including ZERO % to the engine will produce 100psi.

Now insert a filter without a bypass valve. Absolutely NOTHING will change in the flow divisions. NOTHING. The relief 'venting' is a product of what the ENGINE cannot process.

100psi limit with

50% relief flow
50psi across the filter ..50psi across the engine
25% relief flow
25psi across the filter 75psi across the engine
10% relief flow
10psi across the filter 90psi across the engine.
5% relief flow
5psi across the filter 95psi across the engine.

There will be a point where the filter is reduced to between inches of W.C. and 2psi @ 100% flow.


That's how the physical events work.

 

[SuperBusa]

Gary - is the oil viscosity constant throughout your example above? I will provide my view/inputs after you clarify the question.

 

[Gary Allan]

I don't care. It's only to demonstrate divisions of flow and how they would appear.

Just attempt to see what's trying to be demonstrated ..and not try and convert it into your image.

It's very simple IF the flow is dividing as it is described to see those results.

Assume water. Assume glue. Just assume that there was 50% shunted flow @ 100psi and it transitions and you ultimately reduced it by some means (inertia, momentum, friction modifiers, whatever).

It doesn't matter the mechanism. We're demonstrating how the indications appear.

That's how it works.

 

[SuperBusa]

You didn't answer the original question. Is the "whatever" fluid's viscosity constant the whole time? - call it 5w-30 oil for instance. Are you assuming the oil viscosity is always a constant (ie, always at the same temperature)? ... yes or no.

I DOES make a difference if the viscosity is changing in your example.

 

[Gary Allan]

No. No spin room, Soupy. Just critique the demonstration.

How would it NOT look exactly as it did with flow divisions as described?

No morphing this into hot oil treatments at ultra high volumes for you

Wiggle out of this one, my arch nemesis ..muuuuwaaaaahhahahhaahah

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
No. No spin room, Soupy. Just critique the demonstration.


I can't unless I know what one of your "missing qualifiers" ... that is IF the viscosity stays perfectly constant the whole time or not.

Yes or No? ... it's not a hard question to answer.

 

[Gary Allan]

Nope.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Nope.

Well, then if the viscosity does not stay constant it's impossible to show you the point I've tried to make many times.

I've said it before a dozen times, here it is again ... "Of course the filter's PSID will gradually disappear as the oil's temperature rises and its viscosity decreases". Anyone knows that.

I really don't know what you're trying to prove with your example above if the oil viscosity is decreasing with time and causing less PSID as time goes on. Anyone who watches an oil pressure gauge can see that happen every time they drive their vehicle.

 

[Gary Allan]

So you say ...tweet-tweet (whistling occurring here)




(imagine Witch Hazel pause ..before)

 

[SuperBusa]

Tell ya what Gary. Do your "famous example" again, but this time assume the oil has a constant viscosity the whole time (ie, the oil is a constant temperature).

 

[Gary Allan]

Nope. You can assume nothing. Just say whether that would work out that way or if it wouldn't. No implications or inferences.

Just what would an engine see if there was no filter there with 50, 75, 99, or 100% of the flow exiting the relief port ..and 100psi of applied pressure.

100psi, correct? If not, why not?

Let's do this with baby steps here, pal.













(imagine that annoying Jello® commercial with the "wiggle" reference to it)

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Nope. You can assume nothing. Just say whether that would work out that way or if it wouldn't. No implications or inferences.

When your try to analyze and describe what's going on you have to set all parameters/qualifier to ensure the analysis is accurate and understood.


In you example a few posts back, you didn't say if the viscosity was constant or not. Then I finally got you to say it wasn't a situation with constant viscosity as a qualifier. Showing your example and saying the oil is changing viscosity doesn't nail down anything. All it says is that when oil gets hot and thin the filter PSID and the engine's PSID (ie, aka "oil pressure") will go down accordingly regardless if the pump is in relief mode or not. Whoopee! ... so what?

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Just what would an engine see if there was no filter there with 50, 75, 99, or 100% of the flow exiting the relief port ..and 100psi of applied pressure.

100psi, correct? If not, why not?


Correct ... I've tried to show that about 100 times in these discussions, but you never pick it up. Like I've said before, when the pump is at the pressure relief setting, that is the max possible amount of pressure exerted on the system, ever (we're talking "ideal" relief valves here).

As long as the pump is in pressure relief (and some amount of it's excess flow volume that can't go down the filter/engine path is going to the sump), the pressure and flow volume going through the filter/engine will be the max possible at that point in time. Read that carefully so you can grasp it.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I've tried to show that about 100 times in these discussions.


Shhhhhhhhhhh-ure, you did.

So is that a: YES, GARY, YOU'RE 100% RIGHT UNDER THE CONDITIONS YOU STATED

YES OR NO, Soupy?

(note to self: Wait for it ..wait for it)

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I've tried to show that about 100 times in these discussions.


Shhhhhhhhhhh-ure, you did.


Go back and re-read some of our "debate threads". If you can settle down and comprehend the written English language you'll see I've said it numerous times.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So is that a: YES, GARY, YOU'RE 100% RIGHT UNDER THE CONDITIONS YOU STATED

YES OR NO, Soupy?


I've only agreed that when the pump is in relief at say 100 psi (its relief pressure setting), then the supply pressure is always 100 psi. Wow, what a revelation!

Maybe I should come up with some quiz questions to see how you stand on some obvious facts that occur in an oiling system - you game?. Maybe with baby steps (or more like a granny walker) we can get somewhere. What's your next step Einstein?

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
... there's no loss of flow to the engine unless the pump is in relief.


Actually, there is no loss of flow volume to the engine even with the pump in relief. All that is happening when in pressure relief is that no increased pressure is put on the filter/engine flow path ... so therefore, the MAX flow volume will occur at pump pressure relief point. All excess pump volume is simply shunted back to the sump via the relief valve.

You can not make any more volume go down the filter/engine circuit than when at pressure relief point. Pressure is what PUSHES the oil through the filter/engine ... nothing else. The higher the pressure, the higher the flow volume. Supply pressure is MAX at the pump's pressure relief setting.


Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You can't give up.

If you're in relief ..you're at reduced flow. There's no spin on that, Soupy.

Don't hijack this thread for one of your spinner trips.



This is where you keep missing the train. I can't give up when you are always talking about incorrect information and facts. Take it to the other thread, or start a new thread if you want to see your erroneous thinking.

The filter/engine circuit will ONLY FLOW what the pressure makes it flow. If the pump is in relief at say 100 psi and never goes any higher in supply pressure, then that is the MAX FLOW possible through the system at that point in time with whatever the viscoity is at that point in time.

All the excess pump volume is shunted to the sump (oil pan). The flow volume (for a given viscosity) going through the filter/engine is always MAX at pump relief pressure ... always.

Explain to me how the flow is reduced to the filter/engine circuit when you are at max supply pressure - YOU CAN'T. You're living in a dream world man!

No wonder you're all screwed up on this stuff.

Certainly someone besides myself can see this ... chime in sometime.


Here's an idea ... let's continue this topic above (snatched from the P1 thread in Oil Filters forum). I don't know why you think flow is reduced to the filter/engine circuit when you have max possible supply pressure when at pump relief. This is so simple to see ... I think you need new glasses.

 

[Gary Allan]

Nope. No trips on the merry-go-round, Soup.

Talk to the hand cuz the face ain't listening

 

[SuperBusa]

Just as I have thought ... you have clearly CONCEDED because you know you are wrong on a few issues that keep going round and round and can't give a clear explanation otherwise.

Why did you bring this thread back to life a few days ago? ... oh yeah, that's right ... you wanted to take baby steps to get through all this stuff.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I wanted to resurrect this thread in an attempt to demonstrate my view here. This may clear some things up.


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Let's do this with baby steps here, pal.


You can't even give me a straight answer on the things I ask you ... so it's obvious that you would struggle if this got into a serious debate. Instead, you are side tracking with your clown acts.

If you can't answer some questions (to "test" your real knowledge), then that's a sign of defeat on your part IMO. Oh well ... I knew it would end up this way.

Originally Posted By: Winner of this Debate !!
Explain to me how the flow is reduced to the filter/engine circuit when you are at max supply pressure - YOU CAN'T.

 

[Gary Allan]

Nope. We're not going on a Soupy trip round and round.

Here's one thing that is absolutely impossible for you to do, Soupy. You can't say "Gary, you're right" ..on anything. Not one time have you posted that. What you've done time and time again is "Well I've pointed that out to YOU hundreds of times!!" ..never once ever saying "You're right". Always needing it to be "you" ..as though I'm agreeing with you ..but I just don't know it.

There is help for this condition ..but it's more fun watching it occur