Maybe this has been resolved long ago... But anyway, I'd like use my filtermag magnetic deal thing on a Royal Purple filter and I know its got the wire mesh holding the synthetic media... in my mind it seems the magnet could really mess up the inside of the filter like twisting ripping and dislocating something. Or is the mesh they use non magnetic like aluminum? Please give me your thoughts. This is really worrying me. Thanks everybody!!
FilterMag on a Royal Purple 820 = DANGER??
- Thread starter Mr TCar
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Even if the magnet has a pull on the internals, I doubt that the pull would be strong enough to damage anything... Let's see what others say.
Good question.
If you run two filter mags, one on each side of the filter where they oppose each other, that would probably equalize the magnetic pull and aleviate any worries; however, that would be a double expense.
If you run two filter mags, one on each side of the filter where they oppose each other, that would probably equalize the magnetic pull and aleviate any worries; however, that would be a double expense.
There's no way the FilterMag is strong enough to do what you ask.
It only will hold the small pieces against the outside of the can. I would rather have the magnet on the bottom of the filter to keep oil from washing across the pieces stuck on the side.
It only will hold the small pieces against the outside of the can. I would rather have the magnet on the bottom of the filter to keep oil from washing across the pieces stuck on the side.
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
Filtered mags work to reduce partical counts in the oil.
There is plenty of material floating around that can't be trapped by any spin on filter.
The filter mag may trap something on the inside of the can before the element has a chance to catch it, so a ton of stuff on the inside of the can may be misleading, but it's certainly working if you get a genuine one that doesn't have weak neodymium magnets.
To the OP, the mesh is probably too far away from the magnetic field to even have an effect on it, but even if it is ferrous which is no guarantee, these filters are built with a very high quality and I seriously doubt that it would do any harm.
There is plenty of material floating around that can't be trapped by any spin on filter.
The filter mag may trap something on the inside of the can before the element has a chance to catch it, so a ton of stuff on the inside of the can may be misleading, but it's certainly working if you get a genuine one that doesn't have weak neodymium magnets.
To the OP, the mesh is probably too far away from the magnetic field to even have an effect on it, but even if it is ferrous which is no guarantee, these filters are built with a very high quality and I seriously doubt that it would do any harm.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
Since I use AC Delco oil filters (they are probably at best 25 microns), then my engine is going to wear out here in the next 6 months.
The Schaeffer folks had the Ranken folks tear down a million mile Ford 5.4L engine. There was not too much wear on the engine from what they reported.
There are many reports of people getting 500K miles with regular dino oil changes. SO yes, I maintain that microns smaller than what the oil filter catches are essentially harmless. An engine that gets regular oil and filter changes will usually outlast the body of the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
Since I use AC Delco oil filters (they are probably at best 25 microns), then my engine is going to wear out here in the next 6 months.
The Schaeffer folks had the Ranken folks tear down a million mile Ford 5.4L engine. There was not too much wear on the engine from what they reported.
There are many reports of people getting 500K miles with regular dino oil changes. SO yes, I maintain that microns smaller than what the oil filter catches are essentially harmless. An engine that gets regular oil and filter changes will usually outlast the body of the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
Since I use AC Delco oil filters (they are probably at best 25 microns), then my engine is going to wear out here in the next 6 months.
The Schaeffer folks had the Ranken folks tear down a million mile Ford 5.4L engine. There was not too much wear on the engine from what they reported.
There are many reports of people getting 500K miles with regular dino oil changes. SO yes, I maintain that microns smaller than what the oil filter catches are essentially harmless. An engine that gets regular oil and filter changes will usually outlast the body of the vehicle.
I hear ya ... just passin' on the study data ... take it up with Amsoil.
Other studies basically also say particles under 25 microns are the most harmful.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
Not really ...
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
More reading to choose from:
https://www.google.com/#q=engine+wear+vs+particle+size
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
Since I use AC Delco oil filters (they are probably at best 25 microns), then my engine is going to wear out here in the next 6 months.
The Schaeffer folks had the Ranken folks tear down a million mile Ford 5.4L engine. There was not too much wear on the engine from what they reported.
There are many reports of people getting 500K miles with regular dino oil changes. SO yes, I maintain that microns smaller than what the oil filter catches are essentially harmless. An engine that gets regular oil and filter changes will usually outlast the body of the vehicle.
I hear ya ... just passin' on the study data ... take it up with Amsoil.
I highly doubt the filter magnet is going to have enough magnetic force to do anything to the wire backed media - magnet it too far away from most of the media/wire mesh. Could be the wire mesh they use is stainless steel, and if so then it's not magnetic anyway.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
This is simply not true. Please stick with the facts. In fact if you make such a claim, please back it up.
Amsoil appears to want to sell everyone one of their fancy bypass filter systems as even their ultra super duper Eao filters don't filter anything smaller than 20 microns (or so they claim).
This is simply not true. Please stick with the facts. In fact if you make such a claim, please back it up.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
This is not true. Small particles actually do the most damage in an otherwise healthy engine.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
This is not true. Small particles actually do the most damage in an otherwise healthy engine.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
This is not true. Small particles actually do the most damage in an otherwise healthy engine.
So unless you use a bypass filter, your engine is being damaged?
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have read, the filter will trap the small metallic particles. Oil filter magnets are not needed.
Oil filter magnets work ... and much of what they catch is too small to be caught in normal filters used on cars on the road.
And the particles that are too small for the filter to catch (20-25 microns) are essentially harmless to the engine.
This is not true. Small particles actually do the most damage in an otherwise healthy engine.
So unless you use a bypass filter, your engine is being damaged?
I use High Temp neodymium magnets on every spin on filter I have. Even on my wife's Xterra that has a smaller RP filter on it.
The metal cage that the filtering material is attached to is tough, and the magnets, even larger ones, are not strong enough to do anything to it.
From what I can tell from dissections of used filters, yes the magnets work.
However, if you want to see real results, place some Hard Drive magnets to the bottom of your oil pan.
A car spends the majority of its life sitting still, without its engine running, so all that mess of fine metal particles has time to settle out of the oil and collect at the bottom of the sump (every night).
When I took the oil pan off of my 2002 Ford Taurus the 2 hard drive magnets that I have had on the outside of there for 7 years had collected a LOT of junk.
I'd use the Filter Mag without worry.
The metal cage that the filtering material is attached to is tough, and the magnets, even larger ones, are not strong enough to do anything to it.
From what I can tell from dissections of used filters, yes the magnets work.
However, if you want to see real results, place some Hard Drive magnets to the bottom of your oil pan.
A car spends the majority of its life sitting still, without its engine running, so all that mess of fine metal particles has time to settle out of the oil and collect at the bottom of the sump (every night).
When I took the oil pan off of my 2002 Ford Taurus the 2 hard drive magnets that I have had on the outside of there for 7 years had collected a LOT of junk.
I'd use the Filter Mag without worry.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
That's why you use a thicker oil, so the film thickness will exceed the size of these particles.
There - that should get everyone stirred up sufficiently.
"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."
That's why you use a thicker oil, so the film thickness will exceed the size of these particles.
There - that should get everyone stirred up sufficiently.
Originally Posted By: Mr TCar
Maybe this has been resolved long ago... But anyway, I'd like use my filtermag magnetic deal thing on a Royal Purple filter and I know its got the wire mesh holding the synthetic media... in my mind it seems the magnet could really mess up the inside of the filter like twisting ripping and dislocating something. Or is the mesh they use non magnetic like aluminum? Please give me your thoughts. This is really worrying me. Thanks everybody!!
I am pretty sure the mesh that is used is aluminum - aluminum is a great go-to metal for creating chicken wire and mesh as it is cheap. As you mention, aluminum is non-magnetic, so there is no concern.
It is important to bear in mind the physics behind magnetic force. This force is very dependent on distance; that is, the closer you are, the stronger the attraction. Magnetic force quickly dissipates as distance increases.
Given the size of oil filter magnets, their magnetic field is quite small, small enough to most likely not have enough force to attract metallic particles trapped in filter media.
Maybe this has been resolved long ago... But anyway, I'd like use my filtermag magnetic deal thing on a Royal Purple filter and I know its got the wire mesh holding the synthetic media... in my mind it seems the magnet could really mess up the inside of the filter like twisting ripping and dislocating something. Or is the mesh they use non magnetic like aluminum? Please give me your thoughts. This is really worrying me. Thanks everybody!!
I am pretty sure the mesh that is used is aluminum - aluminum is a great go-to metal for creating chicken wire and mesh as it is cheap. As you mention, aluminum is non-magnetic, so there is no concern.
It is important to bear in mind the physics behind magnetic force. This force is very dependent on distance; that is, the closer you are, the stronger the attraction. Magnetic force quickly dissipates as distance increases.
Given the size of oil filter magnets, their magnetic field is quite small, small enough to most likely not have enough force to attract metallic particles trapped in filter media.
Yes, small particles do the most damage to the engine... mainly because after filtration, they are the highest concentration of particles... but the additives in the oil and the qualities in the oil that minimize metal to metal contact all help to minimize the damage.
Really, this is all about the concentration or contamination level of the oil. The contamination levels stay low in most modern engines because the inputs are low. A good air filter minimizes intrusion from that area and many modern engines use roller cams and/or rockers and use external timing belts rather than chains. These features remove the largest source of wear metal (iron) contamination. The bottom line is that the rate of contamination is low so at the end of an OCi, the levels of harmful contaminants are also low and little wear is experienced vs engines of the past.
Look here: 15K On Bypass for my recent 15K mile, 2.5 year UOA on a 5.4L engine. This engine has timing chains so the ferrous wear metals tend to be a little higher than some engines. If you look at the wear metals concentration, it looks pretty typical for a 5.4L at say 7-8K miles. Look also at the particle count (the more accurate optical type) and you will see a very low concentration of material. That's because this engine is running a 3um absolute bypass system, along with a P1 filter that is rated at 98.7% @ 20 um. Great filtration overall but why are the UOA not startlingly better?
The answer is that in a range of oil cleanliness, or perhaps below a certain level of oil contamination, wear rates don't change all that much. There is no doubt that less wear is generated with cleaner oil it's just that the difference between the upper end of the "clean" range and the lower is very small. The main difference here is the return on the investment you made for the cleaner oil. For this reason, I see extremely high efficiency filtration as providing the best payback in facilitating longer OCIs. Essentially my 15K conventional oil looked as good as 7K oil and could probably have run a lot longer.
IMO how much good a magnet does is proportional to how much iron is running around in your engine. They are most useful and cost effective in old school flat tappet, timing chain equipped engines that shed iron like mad. If you have a roller cam/rocker engine with a rubber timing belt, that is the lest cost effective situation because that engine generates MUCH less iron.
I often forget but I have a magnetic oil filter base from Pareto Point. I bought it mainly for the extra ports it had so I could attach my bypass system and a differential pressure gauge setup to monitor the primary oil filter flow and DP. I'venever looked at it to see how much iron was collected I ran a Magnefitler for a while (about 10K) and when I took it off, I could see very little iron on it.
Within the text of my UOA remarks, you will see both the 5K and 10 particle counts ISO codes listed. The bypass filter quickly cleaned up the 5K oil to a state cleaner than the virgin oil and it basically maintained it at that level to 15K.
Really, this is all about the concentration or contamination level of the oil. The contamination levels stay low in most modern engines because the inputs are low. A good air filter minimizes intrusion from that area and many modern engines use roller cams and/or rockers and use external timing belts rather than chains. These features remove the largest source of wear metal (iron) contamination. The bottom line is that the rate of contamination is low so at the end of an OCi, the levels of harmful contaminants are also low and little wear is experienced vs engines of the past.
Look here: 15K On Bypass for my recent 15K mile, 2.5 year UOA on a 5.4L engine. This engine has timing chains so the ferrous wear metals tend to be a little higher than some engines. If you look at the wear metals concentration, it looks pretty typical for a 5.4L at say 7-8K miles. Look also at the particle count (the more accurate optical type) and you will see a very low concentration of material. That's because this engine is running a 3um absolute bypass system, along with a P1 filter that is rated at 98.7% @ 20 um. Great filtration overall but why are the UOA not startlingly better?
The answer is that in a range of oil cleanliness, or perhaps below a certain level of oil contamination, wear rates don't change all that much. There is no doubt that less wear is generated with cleaner oil it's just that the difference between the upper end of the "clean" range and the lower is very small. The main difference here is the return on the investment you made for the cleaner oil. For this reason, I see extremely high efficiency filtration as providing the best payback in facilitating longer OCIs. Essentially my 15K conventional oil looked as good as 7K oil and could probably have run a lot longer.
IMO how much good a magnet does is proportional to how much iron is running around in your engine. They are most useful and cost effective in old school flat tappet, timing chain equipped engines that shed iron like mad. If you have a roller cam/rocker engine with a rubber timing belt, that is the lest cost effective situation because that engine generates MUCH less iron.
I often forget but I have a magnetic oil filter base from Pareto Point. I bought it mainly for the extra ports it had so I could attach my bypass system and a differential pressure gauge setup to monitor the primary oil filter flow and DP. I'venever looked at it to see how much iron was collected I ran a Magnefitler for a while (about 10K) and when I took it off, I could see very little iron on it.
Within the text of my UOA remarks, you will see both the 5K and 10 particle counts ISO codes listed. The bypass filter quickly cleaned up the 5K oil to a state cleaner than the virgin oil and it basically maintained it at that level to 15K.
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