Filter size: yesteryear vs today

[dnewton3]

I read the OP's post and that's what I was responding to. You are the one who used the word "better" which neither I nor the OP had used.

I don't subscribe to the notion that a larger filter is automatically better, no. To me that is secondary to filtering efficiency. All assuming it is designed and constructed properly so that it does not fail during use.

I agree. The words like "better" or "best" are not well defined without further declaration.

Here's something I posted elsewhere in another thread ...

Efficiency is the description of how often a particle of some size is caught relative to it's presenation occurence.
Example: filter A is 95% efficient at catching particles at 20um or larger

Capacity is a description of how much particulate a filter can hold before becoming overwhelmed; it's a quantity thing.
Example: filter A can hold 30 grams of particulate suspended in the media before it becomes blinded off to a point where the BP would open regularly. (Typically marketed as an OCI distance and not a weight by grams; though grams is far more accurate, you'll not see that comparitively on the box in the store).

Depending upon design for the intent of market targeted, you can have any manner of filter for an application
- high efficiency but low capacity
- high efficiency with high capacity
- low efficiency with low capacity
- low efficiency with high capacity

Most folks would say "I want the "best" and the "best" must be the filter with the highest efficiency and highest capacity !!!"
Well, maybe so, but that only depends on how you define what "best" means to each unique person for any one application.
Having excess product abilities that ultimately go unused is a waste of a resource, meaning it's a also waste of money.


Pick a filter based on two things:
- efficiency good enough to sustain the desired wear rates (typically anything 85% or greater at 20um will suffice)
- capacity enough to sustain the OCI distance.

To some people, including myself, I want both a safe operational condition AND a good return on investment. I won't blindly spend more money for "better", when "better" hasn't proven itself to actually materialize in a tangible sense. Buying "more" of something that you actually don't realize isn't "cheap insurance" to me, it's just waste.

 

[Odd_Ball]

My 2015 5.7 HEMI still uses a full size filter. I think this has more to do with manufacturers being cheap, than it does with engines all of a sudden being so wonderful and clean.

My 2018 Toyota Camry takes one of those cheap, tiny little, "mini filters". The can itself is so thin and cheaply made, I can crush it with a strap wrench removing it. This is all about cost. Now they are able to make 3 filters with the same material they used to make one out of. The dollars. Always the dollars.

It's not really about cost. Look at an engine bay of a 1960s or 70s car compared to today. Notice anything? A modern engine bay starts off smaller to begin with, and is completely packed up with things that either didn't exist or were rare on cars of those earlier era. And look at the belly pans under most engines today to get aerodynamic drag down so they can meet CAFE.

My dad had an early 60's C10 truck. You could literally find a place to stand next to the engine inside the bay.

These small filters are all about the limited space available in the engine bay of a modern car and what size is actually required to make an effective filter.

 

[PimTac]

Times do change and along with that the notions on certain things. I do remember oil filters that took a quart of oil to fill. Along the way engineers realized that oil filters did not have to be that big to accomplish the task.

Someone mentioned teacup oil filters. Mine is smaller than that.

 

[billt460]

It's not really about cost.

When a "Genuine Toyota" oil filter is manufactured from so thin of material, that you can crush it with a tool that is specifically designed to remove oil filters, (a metal strap oil filter wrench, which I've used to remove many oil filters with before), then YES, it IS about cost. There is absolutely no excuse or reason, other than cost, to make an oil filter so flimsy, that it won't hold up to the tool designed to be used to remove it........

And no, it was not on too tight. Toyota oil filters seal with an O-Ring. And they tighten by hand until they stop against the metal backing of the filter.

 

[PimTac]

When a "Genuine Toyota" oil filter is manufactured from so thin of material, that you can crush it with a tool that is specifically designed to remove oil filters, (a metal strap oil filter wrench, which I've used to remove many oil filters with before), then YES, it IS about cost. There is absolutely no excuse or reason, other than cost, to make an oil filter so flimsy, that it won't hold up to the tool designed to be used to remove it........

And no, it was not on too tight. Toyota oil filters seal with an O-Ring. And they tighten by hand until they stop against the metal backing of the filter.

Every Denso filter I have seen on here and in person has a thicker metal can than its counterparts.

A strap wrench is not the best tool to loosen tight filters either.

 

[billt460]

Every Denso filter I have seen on here and in person has a thicker metal can than its counterparts.

A strap wrench is not the best tool to loosen tight filters either.

I've had Fram's go on and off the same engine with the same tool effortlessly. The cans are made of more substantial material. They don't collapse. Now I have 9 more of these POS's I either have to deal with, or else toss.

 

[billt460]

Considering they are already making them out of metal so thin they buckle and crush. I can't help but wonder how long it's going to be, before they start injection molding oil filter cans out of plastic?

They're already doing it with oil and transmission pans, along with suspension components. So why not oil filters as well? My guess is it's only a matter of time.

 

[kschachn]

Okay but really who cares if the can crushes a bit when using a strap wrench to remove? I agree that I've seen it many times on the Toyota and Denso aftermarket filters I've used, but this is when I'm removing it so what does it really matter? The filters have never leaked during use nor do they burst due to a thinner can. By the time I'm taking it off the filter is done and headed for the recycler. Up until then it's done its job and crimping or crushing at that point is irrelevant.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Another factor that probably contributed to oil filters becoming smaller is the technology of media design. A good example is the Fram Ultra when it was 2-layer full synthetic with the wire backing. The media area in the can was much less than the same sized filter made with cellulose or semi-synthetic media. Some of those old filters that were huge in the old days might have been as large as they were based on the constraints of the media performance back then.

It's all about filter media design and the total media area. You can put the same total area in a smaller can by making more pleats, or you can put the same total area in a larger can with not as many pleats. Look at the old (wire backed media) vs new Ultra (not wire backed media) ... there is a lot more media area in the new Ultra because it was required to maintain the performance goals. The direction to optimize an oil filter would be to get the most performance (efficiency, holding capacity and delta-p vs flow) out of a filter by making the size as small as possible to save production costs while still achieving all of those performance goals.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I've had Fram's go on and off the same engine with the same tool effortlessly. The cans are made of more substantial material. They don't collapse. Now I have 9 more of these POS's I either have to deal with, or else toss.

Where did you buy those Denso filters? If not directly from a Toyota dealer, possible they could be counterfeit.

 

[billt460]

Okay but really who cares if the can crushes a bit when using a strap wrench to remove? I agree that I've seen it many times on the Toyota and Denso aftermarket filters I've used, but this is when I'm removing it so what does it really matter? The filters have never leaked during use nor do they burst due to a thinner can. By the time I'm taking it off the filter is done and headed for the recycler. Up until then it's done its job and crimping or crushing at that point is irrelevant.

Why are you sticking up for cheap, crappy construction? Consumers like yourself are the reason we have to deal with junk like this in the first place. You're not only tolerant of it, you stickup for it.

A filter should not collapse from being simply installed or removed, period. It should be manufactured to a durable enough degree in order to withstand whatever force is required to be applied to it, in order to function properly. That includes installing and removing it.

The can collapsed, forcing me to use a toothed set of removal jaws, that punctured and tore the can open in the process, making a big mess. This is inexcusable. I've been installing and removing oil filters with strap wrenches since the late 60's. And this is the first time I've ever had a can collapse because it was made so thin and cheap.

 

[billt460]

Where did you buy those Denso filters? If not directly from a Toyota dealer, possible they could be counterfeit.

They came direct from Toyota, who then shipped them to a Toyota dealer, who shipped them to me. They are not counterfeit. They're just cheap crap.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ They are inefficient too.

 

[billt460]

^^^ They are inefficient too.

I don't doubt it for a minute. Crap is crap.

 

[kschachn]

Why are you sticking up for cheap, crappy construction? Consumers like yourself are the reason we have to deal with junk like this in the first place. You're not only tolerant of it, you stickup for it.

A filter should not collapse from being simply installed or removed, period. It should be manufactured to a durable enough degree in order to withstand whatever force is required to be applied to it, in order to function properly. That includes installing and removing it.

The can collapsed, forcing me to use a toothed set of removal jaws, that punctured and tore the can open in the process, making a big mess. This is inexcusable. I've been installing and removing oil filters with strap wrenches since the late 60's. And this is the first time I've ever had a can collapse because it was made so thin and cheap.

I'm not really understanding the obvious anger in this post nor others today. All I said was that it's inconsequential that an oil filter may crimp or collapse during removal when using a strap wrench as you noted. That's not how the filter can is stressed during operation, nor did I ever mention having it crimp during installation. Are you using the same wrench while installing the filter? For one thing since these filters have a "torque stop" construction they should not be twisted any tighter after the can contacts the base. I can say that in over 20 years and many of these filters being used on both my Toyota vehicles I've never had to resort to "toothed set of removal jaws" nor have any torn open while using a strap wrench to remove. This situation sounds like it has a lot more to do with something other than the construction of the filter. On the other hand I'm not a gorilla putting them on so maybe that's just me.

And as for being a "stickup", I'm not a stickup for anything. My comments about the filter can performing properly during use are correct. Later in this thread you call the filters "crap" which is just plan silly. Yes complain if you wish that they don't publish efficiency ratings, or if they leak during use, or if they burst on you, or if when cut open they exhibit tears in the media, or any number of relevant attributes. But just because they don't have a can thickness to your liking hardly makes them crap.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don't doubt it for a minute. Crap is crap.

Do they have an orange/red or black ADBV? If black, how about sacrificing one for the name of BITOG science by cutting it open to remove the ADBV and give it a burn test to see if it's "black silicone" like Toyota/Denso has claimed in the past.

ADBV Burn Test - Silicone vs Nitrile Rubber

I posted some of this information in another thread, but thought I would dedicate a thread showing the difference between how silicone vs nitrile rubber burns. The tables below show the key differences when the rubber is burned. If you have a doubt on if the ADBV is silicone or nitrile (ie, a...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[PimTac]

Here is a recent comparison of a USA made Motorcraft filter against a China made Denso.

 

[ZeeOSix]

They came direct from Toyota, who then shipped them to a Toyota dealer, who shipped them to me. They are not counterfeit. They're just cheap crap.

I'd check them anyway, just in case.

 

[billt460]

I'm not really understanding the obvious anger in this post nor others today. All I said was that it's inconsequential that an oil filter may crimp or collapse during removal when using a strap wrench as you noted. That's not how the filter can is stressed during operation, nor did I ever mention having it crimp during installation. Are you using the same wrench while installing the filter? For one thing since these filters have a "torque stop" construction they should not be twisted any tighter after the can contacts the base. I can say that in over 20 years and many of these filters being used on both my Toyota vehicles I've never had to resort to "toothed set of removal jaws" nor have any torn open while using a strap wrench to remove. This situation sounds like it has a lot more to do with something other than the construction of the filter. On the other hand I'm not a gorilla putting them on so maybe that's just me.

And as for being a "stickup", I'm not a stickup for anything. My comments about the filter can performing properly during use are correct. Later in this thread you call the filters "crap" which is just plan silly. Yes complain if you wish that they don't publish efficiency ratings, or if they leak during use, or if they burst on you, or if when cut open they exhibit tears in the media, or any number of relevant attributes. But just because they don't have a can thickness to your liking hardly makes them crap.

I'm not "angry". I'm disgusted. I paid good money for a case of OEM Toyota filters. And I have no doubt they are, seeing as they passed through Toyota twice before they came to me.

In spite of that they're cheap crap. There is no other description for it. Once again, an oil filter should not deform, and or collapse from the normal torque and force that is required to remove it.

I've had plenty of oil filters that were far tighter and tougher to remove than this POS, and none of them deformed by simply putting a strap wrench on them. None. Ever.

If you read my above post, I said the Toyota filters seal hand tight with an O-Ring that stops when the filter base contacts metal. You don't torque beyond that. In spite of that it was tight enough to collapse the can before it broke loose. That is not proper filter performance, period. I don't much care what you think it, "sounds like". That's exactly what happened. And it happened because the filter can is too thin, and it's cheaply made.

I've had this vehicle for 4 years since I bought it new. And I change oil every 6 months. And up until this I used nothing but Fram 4967 series oil filters, and never had a bit of trouble.

I purchased of case of these OEM Toyota filters, (bad move on my part), because I thought I was getting a quality product. I obviously did not. So live and learn. Luckily, I had an extra Fram laying around, so I didn't have to put another POS Toyota / Denso, or whatever tin can on. Now I can relax knowing I won't have a messy fight on my hands next October, when I change it again.

 

[javacontour]

Absolutely none of that equates, (or ever will for that matter), to a smaller oil filter being better.

But it does lead to the conclusion they are sufficient.

I'd say it leads to the conclusion that the large filters are not necessarily better.