FIAT is back......

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The previous gen F-150 extended cab test is indeed scary. But it'll still kill you if you are driving a small car.

However, the newer F-150 did a LOT better (perfect in fact):



BTW, they all didn't do that hot (save Toyota, though I imagine that changes once the frame rots) from that time period:
 
Originally Posted By: BBDartCA
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Anyone watching the F150 crash tests from years ago. More weight=more energy in a crash to dissipate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCIBOYxzqko



WOW!


Thats what I say! Compare that to the Caddy CTS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEHtO1PToso


You can't. That's a direct frontal vs offset frontal. However, if you find an offset for the CTS, please feel free to compare it to the same year (2009) of F-150. I posted the 2004-2008 video above.

EDIT: here is the 2009 F-150 frontal comparable to the CTS:
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7

And at what point in the arms race fueled by the bigger = safer does both sides agree 'safety' has been attained and call it a day - when we're all driving tractor trailers perhaps. As, by your logic, anything smaller is unsafe since no matter what you're driving - short of a tractor trailer - a head on collision with one is still going to produce the same result. The only consequence in being the occupant of a Hummer in such a collision means more wreckage to be hauled off and sold for scrap.

-Spyder


What are you talking about, "at what point do both sides agree?" What sides? The point is that vehicle size should be a consideration when choosing an automobile. And, if a pick-up hit a tractor trailer, and a Mini Cooper hit a tractor trailer, the results would not be the same. The driver in the Cooper would be much worse off, and the acceleration of the Cooper in the opposite direction after the impact would be much higher probably leading to worse whiplash. It is still all relative. Sure there are safety features of vehicles that can help keep drivers safe(r) in collisions, but you can't get past physics.
 
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
And, if a pick-up hit a tractor trailer, and a Mini Cooper hit a tractor trailer, the results would not be the same. The driver in the Cooper would be much worse off, and the acceleration of the Cooper in the opposite direction after the impact would be much higher probably leading to worse whiplash. It is still all relative. Sure there are safety features of vehicles that can help keep drivers safe(r) in collisions, but you can't get past physics.


In a high speed collision between a Hummer or Cooper versus a tractor trailer, the only difference in outcome will be in terms of the size of the debris field left behind. Even if the Hummer is military issue and armor plated, its still going to be bulldozed flat.

Which was my point: unless you're driving a tractor trailer, you're always going to be potential mince meat against a large enough vehicle: tractor trailer, school bus, dump truck, whatever. Your line of reasoning suggests that, carried to its logical conclusion, one is only safe if driving something the size of a tractor trailer - since any personal vehicle, no matter how big, is still several magnitudes smaller by comparison.

If that is your sole criteria for vehicle selection, then a tractor trailer stands to be the reasonable selection - anything else is, by comparison, far too small to offer any realistic chance of survival in any type of high speed collision.

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument as the roads are not littered exclusively with tractor trailers (or even Hummers) as very few subscribe to that type of mentality. Life is full of risk, if you want to avoid it altogether then the only certain measure of surviving an accident is to stay off the roads entirely.

Or accept that when your number comes up, your choice of vehicle does not bestow on you some magical badge of immunity from death or any kind of immortality.

I survived (without permanent injury) a relatively high speed collision with an SUV - and I did so as a pedestrian, without even the most marginal layer of protection that even a Smart Car would have afforded. The closest thing I had to any type of protection was my height (which threw me over the hood instead of underneath) and a winter jacket that may have made the difference between bruised ribs and broken ribs, and extensive bruising and abrasions versus internal injuries.

So your reasoning just doesn't wash with me. When your numbers called, that's it and statistically, its more likely to take a much more mundane form of death than an MVA. For every person who walked away from a serious MVA and chalked his survival up to whatever hulk of steel he was sitting in, there are those who were driving the exact same thing who didn't fare as well, and as many or more who walked away from accidents that your line of reasoning says should have been fatal - but weren't.

Life is full of risk. You can either wrap yourself in a blanket of fear and cite physics to rationalize it and the choices motivated by it, or simply accept that its part of life and nothing sold by any automaker confers upon you mythical pass when your number is called. Statistically, the 'small car' fear you are selling has no real basis in fact and is nothing more than baseless fear mongering. If you want to live your life that way, have at it. For me: walked away from the very thing your line of reasoning calls impossible and consequently refuse to subscribe to it.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Saw one yesterday on the road. For me, reliability/mpg is #1 priority.


I am 6 ft. 4 in tall, I sat in one at the Columbus Auto Show and my head stuck up through the sun roof!
15.gif
And I agree, most folks buy cars on looks/emotion, not reliability. A salesman once tole me "for every buyer like you looking at quality, 99 look at the cup holders."

John
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
And, if a pick-up hit a tractor trailer, and a Mini Cooper hit a tractor trailer, the results would not be the same. The driver in the Cooper would be much worse off, and the acceleration of the Cooper in the opposite direction after the impact would be much higher probably leading to worse whiplash. It is still all relative. Sure there are safety features of vehicles that can help keep drivers safe(r) in collisions, but you can't get past physics.


In a high speed collision between a Hummer or Cooper versus a tractor trailer, the only difference in outcome will be in terms of the size of the debris field left behind. Even if the Hummer is military issue and armor plated, its still going to be bulldozed flat.

Which was my point: unless you're driving a tractor trailer, you're always going to be potential mince meat against a large enough vehicle: tractor trailer, school bus, dump truck, whatever. Your line of reasoning suggests that, carried to its logical conclusion, one is only safe if driving something the size of a tractor trailer - since any personal vehicle, no matter how big, is still several magnitudes smaller by comparison.

If that is your sole criteria for vehicle selection, then a tractor trailer stands to be the reasonable selection - anything else is, by comparison, far too small to offer any realistic chance of survival in any type of high speed collision.

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument as the roads are not littered exclusively with tractor trailers (or even Hummers) as very few subscribe to that type of mentality. Life is full of risk, if you want to avoid it altogether then the only certain measure of surviving an accident is to stay off the roads entirely.

Or accept that when your number comes up, your choice of vehicle does not bestow on you some magical badge of immunity from death or any kind of immortality.

I survived (without permanent injury) a relatively high speed collision with an SUV - and I did so as a pedestrian, without even the most marginal layer of protection that even a Smart Car would have afforded. The closest thing I had to any type of protection was my height (which threw me over the hood instead of underneath) and a winter jacket that may have made the difference between bruised ribs and broken ribs, and extensive bruising and abrasions versus internal injuries.

So your reasoning just doesn't wash with me. When your numbers called, that's it and statistically, its more likely to take a much more mundane form of death than an MVA. For every person who walked away from a serious MVA and chalked his survival up to whatever hulk of steel he was sitting in, there are those who were driving the exact same thing who didn't fare as well, and as many or more who walked away from accidents that your line of reasoning says should have been fatal - but weren't.

Life is full of risk. You can either wrap yourself in a blanket of fear and cite physics to rationalize it and the choices motivated by it, or simply accept that its part of life and nothing sold by any automaker confers upon you mythical pass when your number is called. Statistically, the 'small car' fear you are selling has no real basis in fact and is nothing more than baseless fear mongering. If you want to live your life that way, have at it. For me: walked away from the very thing your line of reasoning calls impossible and consequently refuse to subscribe to it.

-Spyder


While what you say is valid there is the flip side. There are a lot more larger cars and SUVs on the road than fully loaded tractor trailers, buses, and dump trucks with plows attached. I drive mostly on a parkway where trucks aren't allowed. I feel a lot safer in my E-150 than my friends Corolla. I think the odds favor most drivers to collide with a car or SUV than one of the monsters I mentioned above. Luck plays into this as well.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

While what you say is valid there is the flip side. There are a lot more larger cars and SUVs on the road than fully loaded tractor trailers, buses, and dump trucks with plows attached. I drive mostly on a parkway where trucks aren't allowed. I feel a lot safer in my E-150 than my friends Corolla. I think the odds favor most drivers to collide with a car or SUV than one of the monsters I mentioned above. Luck plays into this as well.


Here, where this the commercial & industrial hub of the province, and where gas is $5 per US gallon, transport and industrial trucks outnumber SUVs and pickup trucks on the highway. In the city the roads are dominated (and dominated cannot be emphasized enough) by cars of various makes and sizes. SUVs are not only more rare, but the ones you do see here are of the smaller and lighter variety (like the Rav4).

Cars run the full spectrum of sizes, but the most common are of the Corolla, Civic, Elantra, Cavalier, etc type and footprint. The next most common are smaller hatchbacks like the Aveo, Rio, Accent, etc.

This phenomena is likely due to a fairly sprawling, low density population (even in the urban areas) combined with our high gasoline prices. Therefore in my Corolla, I don't stand out - instead I blend in with the one in front of me, the Civic on my right, the Cavalier on my left, and the Accord behind me. Probably this contributes to my incomprehension of this bigger = must have sentiment that is I suppose just a different reality where you guys are, but one that is not apparent here, and why I therefore don't share it.

Even though there are larger vehicles, its those that are the vast minority here, and why I pay scant attention to them. They don't rule our streets, nor for the most part make any attempt to. I've had the rare encounter with a driver of something much larger who has tried to use that size combined with aggressive driving in some pathetic - to me - attempt at intimidation, which is easily ignored because it is so rare.

-Spyder
 
^^ I got it! ^^
thumbsup2.gif


OT- It all depends I guess, on the LIE Tractor Trailers typically use their mass to move slower drivers to the right. The tactic works many times for these guys. Lets not forget our friends on motorcycles, some can cause a whole different set of problems.
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7


In a high speed collision between a Hummer or Cooper versus a tractor trailer, the only difference in outcome will be in terms of the size of the debris field left behind. Even if the Hummer is military issue and armor plated, its still going to be bulldozed flat.

Or accept that when your number comes up, your choice of vehicle does not bestow on you some magical badge of immunity from death or any kind of immortality.

So your reasoning just doesn't wash with me. -Spyder


You are simply wrong about your Hummer statement. Both won't be bulldozed. Size matters in collisions. More specifically mass. But more size usually means more mass.You might still be bad off in a Hummer vs. a tractor, but you will be better off than if you were in a Cooper. Your hypothesis that size doesn't matter is simply incorrect. Your problem isn't with my reasoning, it is with God or Mother Nature or whatever (and Newton for quantifying the relationship between mass, force, and accelerations).
 
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
Originally Posted By: Spyder7


In a high speed collision between a Hummer or Cooper versus a tractor trailer, the only difference in outcome will be in terms of the size of the debris field left behind. Even if the Hummer is military issue and armor plated, its still going to be bulldozed flat.

Or accept that when your number comes up, your choice of vehicle does not bestow on you some magical badge of immunity from death or any kind of immortality.

So your reasoning just doesn't wash with me. -Spyder


You are simply wrong about your Hummer statement. Both won't be bulldozed. Size matters in collisions. More specifically mass. But more size usually means more mass.You might still be bad off in a Hummer vs. a tractor, but you will be better off than if you were in a Cooper. Your hypothesis that size doesn't matter is simply incorrect. Your problem isn't with my reasoning, it is with God or Mother Nature or whatever (and Newton for quantifying the relationship between mass, force, and accelerations).


I'm using your reasoning. The difference in size between and mass between a Hummer and a Smart Car pales by several orders of magnitude compared to a tractor trailer and a Hummer. The difference is far greater than between a Hummer and a Smart Car. Therefore if a Smart Car is doomed in a head on collision versus a Hummer, a Hummer must face the same fate in a head on collision with a transport truck.

If you can't see this, then you're not relying on Newtonian physics, but a bias that leads to believe you to believe in a non-existent immunity to those laws that you think a Hummer sized vehicle somehow confers. It doesn't. And there is no 'less worse off' that is applicable in such a scenario as the same Newtonian physics you cite to illustrate how a small car is unsafe because of the larger cars apply in a scenario involving any size car (or SUV) versus a tractor trailer. You're injecting your own bias to selectively demonstrate when they do and don't apply.

Numbers don't lie, however, and here they are:

Weight of a fully loaded transport truck: up to 80,000 lbs
GVW of a Hummer H1: up to 12,000 lbs.
GVW of a Smart car: 2,100 lbs.

Now try and follow along. The difference in mass between the Hummer H1 and the Smart Car is less than 10,000 lbs and the difference in mass as a ratio is about 6:1. The difference between the fully loaded transport truck and the H1 is 68,000 lbs and expressed as a ratio it is about 6.5:1.

The proof is the numbers. If a Smart Car, because of its mass, is toast versus an H1 because of 10,000 lb difference in mass and a 6:1 difference in their ratio, then explain to me again - using Newtonian physics - how the same isn't true when the difference in mass is 68,000 lbs and the difference as a ratio is higher than the above example as well.

You can't because physics don't lie and they don't care about your bias or mistaken belief in some kind of the road immortality the H1 or any other large SUV is supposed to confer upon its occupants. I would argue instead that such fallacies make you MORE vulnerable; I know the limitations of what I drive and drive it accordingly. Clearly you believe that sitting snug in your SUV no such limitations apply and reason suggests that this is - even if only unconsciously - going to be reflected in your driving style as well.

That would also explain why every winter I see so many more SUVs in the ditch than passenger cars. Their drivers subscribe to similar fallacies and don't realize that 4WD doesn't bestow upon them any kind of magical abilities when it comes to cornering at speed any more than their 2WD counterparts have. Yet they don't make that connection and think its 4WD means they can drive it on icy roads with the same expectation of a 2WD on dry pavement.

-Spyder
 
There are far more SUV's and cars on the roads in most of North America than there are transport trucks however.

So while both are likely headed for a spot on the concrete when involved in a head-on with a transport, the likelihood of you getting in an accident with a car or SUV is far more likely.

How many people in this thread have been in an accident? Now how many of them have been with a car, truck or SUV? How about with a transport?
wink.gif
Exactly.

I have been in three accidents involving other vehicles in my life:

1. Involved my Explorer and a Crown Victoria
2. Involved my Explorer and a Subaru WRX
3. Involved my Expedition and getting rear-ended by a Chrysler Van.

That, as a data sample is two cars, a van and two different SUV's, LOL!

In all of the above, the SUV made out significantly better than the other vehicles involved. That has been my experience.

I've never been in an accident with a transport, hope never to be in an accident with a transport, and statistically, am far more likely to get in an accident with another car than I am with a transport. I am not naive enough to think that the Expedition is going to fair well against a Kenworth.

However

We do know, that an F-250 vs a Camry (IIRC), that the results were five people dead in the Camry, everybody without injury in the truck.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
There are far more SUV's and cars on the roads in most of North America than there are transport trucks however.

So while both are likely headed for a spot on the concrete when involved in a head-on with a transport, the likelihood of you getting in an accident with a car or SUV is far more likely.

How many people in this thread have been in an accident? Now how many of them have been with a car, truck or SUV? How about with a transport?
wink.gif
Exactly.

I have been in three accidents involving other vehicles in my life:

1. Involved my Explorer and a Crown Victoria
2. Involved my Explorer and a Subaru WRX
3. Involved my Expedition and getting rear-ended by a Chrysler Van.

That, as a data sample is two cars, a van and two different SUV's, LOL!

In all of the above, the SUV made out significantly better than the other vehicles involved. That has been my experience.

I've never been in an accident with a transport, hope never to be in an accident with a transport, and statistically, am far more likely to get in an accident with another car than I am with a transport. I am not naive enough to think that the Expedition is going to fair well against a Kenworth.

However

We do know, that an F-250 vs a Camry (IIRC), that the results were five people dead in the Camry, everybody without injury in the truck.


I agree. My previous post was addressed at a poster who seemed to posit facts where it suited them, and citing laws of physics to support them, and then dismissed outright how those very same laws applied in my example not because they were unlikely, but because he dismissed the same Newtonian Physics because they didn't fit with his bias.

Your argument, on the other hand, is a reasoned one and comes to a perfectly correct conclusion.

I've been in 2 accidents: one as a pedestrian where I was hit by an SUV (described up thread), and one where I flipped and rolled a Hyundai Accent on the TCH after being cut off and locking up the brakes to avoid hitting the van that cut me off (the car went into an immediate skid, and within 1-2 seconds the wheels touched the snowy shoulder whereupon it flipped and traveled about 30' before touching down and rolling multiple times).

The second accident I literally walked away from, although the insurance covered the damage even though they could have just as easily written it off. In the first, I had the wind so badly knocked out of me that I spent a night on a respirator and several more days in hospital on morphine and under observation. No permanent injuries (not even a single broken bone).

Both times I essentially walked away from accidents that looked so bad they defy any reason on sight as to how it could have been so (the SUV that hit me had its windshield smashed in, A pillar crumpled, and driver's mirror tore off from impact and when I rolled off it laterally and onto the pavement, face first).

As a result of both, I'm a much more careful and cautious driver than I was even 5 years ago (let alone 20 years ago) but refuse to allow fear to motivate my decisions. This was something I learned after being ripped up at age 5 by a loose dog, resulting in 30 stitches to my face, neck, and scalp (no scars other than faint and easily concealed ones on my scalp). I was very intimidated after by large dogs and it could have easily developed into a full fledged phobia.

Instead over time I forced myself to engage with them and by the time I hit puberty there was no lingering fear at all (and I've since encountered loose and aggressive dogs that opted not to try and attack because I don't show the very fear that they so easily detect and readily act upon).

My mom was also in a head on collision on the TCH with another car while pregnant with me. She was driving, my aunt and grandmother were also in the car. This was before people wore seatbelts, and none of them had them. My mom survived completely uninjured (save a scratch on her ankle), my aunt had abrasions but was otherwise uninjured, my grandmother who was between them nearly died (ruptured spleen, multiple fractured ribs, extensive internal bleeding). She made a full recovery after several months of hospitalization.

I suppose that is technically 3 strikes for me. Though except for an impression in my upper thigh from the top edge of the bumper of the SUV that severed hamstring muscle tissue in that impact, you would never know it.

All of this is why, and in having seen people killed in less severe accidents than what I walked away from, I don't buy into the brand of fear that some people sell and themselves buy into with a false sense of immortality conferred upon them by what they drive (had a rolled an SUV instead of an Accent, we might not be having this discussion - life is full of 'what ifs'). When your number is up, its up. Meantime I learned from the age of 5 onward not to cow down to something larger than I am, and there is no way that's about to change 22 years later.

Nobody lives forever. Enjoy what you have now and make the most of it.

-Spyder
 
I can tell you from my minor accident, the little Civic that rear ended my E-150 came out on the short end of the stick in a big way. Living on Long Island just about all my life I have seen many accidents, IMO bigger is better. Yea we can talk about trucks but as I've said and OVERK1LL said they are a small % of what's on the road. Get railed by one of them and its probably over.

The newer technology and crumple zones are helping the smaller vehicle passengers survive. They are also helping the body shops because when they fold up its big money to fix them.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Yep... I did a double take when I frst saw a line of them up on a hill at some out of town car dealership. I then saw the FIAT logo and cracked a smile... I remember them from a visit to Italy some 15 years ago.

Are these the next hipster little car, or still Found In A Trashcan?


The 500 is a neat looking little car. I could see myself driving one.

Fiat-500_Abarth_2009_1024x768_wallpaper_02.jpg


Waiting to see one in person. Looks smaller than our Festiva but in real life it probably isn't. Someday may have to get one. I guess based on most here we should be dead from driving the smaller car. If I was that afraid might as well stay home. There's far bigger dangers than the worthless small versus big car debate that's rehashed over and over on here.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I can tell you from my minor accident, the little Civic that rear ended my E-150 came out on the short end of the stick in a big way. Living on Long Island just about all my life I have seen many accidents, IMO bigger is better. Yea we can talk about trucks but as I've said and OVERK1LL said they are a small % of what's on the road. Get railed by one of them and its probably over.

The newer technology and crumple zones are helping the smaller vehicle passengers survive. They are also helping the body shops because when they fold up its big money to fix them.


That's why I was amazed when my insurance collision policy (which I had then, now downgraded to just PL) opted to repair the Accent instead of fixing it. The final bill was close to $10k, and almost all of that was body work. It exceeded the book value of the car (it was a 2 year old at the time and cost 10k new). The body shop did exceptional work though, and with the detailing it came back looking like new.

Because this was a rollover, it actually didn't look too bad - not 10k bad anyway. The roof received the brunt of the damage, with the rear portion buckling in completely (the pillars were intact and didn't buckle, just everything between and behind the front seats).

I was the lone occupant at the time. Had their been rear adult sized passengers it would likely not have been pretty. That plays into the whole host of 'what ifs' though, and second guessing which I've learned is a waste of life.

The same week I was hit by an SUV at a fairly high rate of speed, a friend's girlfriend was hit by a much slower and smaller car that was making a turn when it hit her. It knocked her backward and the awkward way she landed broke her foot and she spent 3 weeks in a cast and on crutches.

In real world accidents there are far too many variables involved to try and outsmart or outguess them. I opt instead to drive with the assumption the rest of the people on the road are likely idiots (because many of them are), and exercise maximum vigilance and awareness while learning not to rush and to pick caution over haste. Aside from that, all I require from my car is a reasonable size sedan for elbow room and utility, 3 point belts, and dual airbags. Along with modern crumple zones, the last two IMHO are the two most important safety innovations that have come along and anything else is gravy or window dressing.

Edit: but if it makes you feel safer than that's not something to dismiss, and really what counts. Car decisions are personal things and we don't all have the same criteria or order them the same way. If we did the streets would be pretty boring.

-Spyder
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I opt instead to drive with the assumption the rest of the people on the road are likely idiots (because many of them are), and exercise maximum vigilance and awareness while learning not to rush and to pick caution over haste. -Spyder


I think you nailed it! What I've also noticed is many of the foul weather accidents are caused by Land Yachts. People feel because they drive a 4x4, PU, or SUV that they can speed in rain, snow, and ice. Many of them learn the hard way that this isn't the case. Driving thinking those around you are idiots is a smart move. That's my mindset.

I also noticed many accidents are caused by the little guys too, many drive like the pros in the Daytona 500 drive, drafting other cars or darting in and out. Lets not talk about motorcycles.........................
 
Spyder:

My understanding of your post(s) on page 2 was that you were saying both a Cooper and a Hummer would be smushed by a tractor. I interpreted that as a farm tractor. My point was that the difference in mass of the Hummer would lead it to protect the driver better than in the case of the Cooper if all other aspects of the Collision were similar between the vehicles with the farm tractor.

In your first post on page 3 (this page) you are talking about a tractor with the Cooper, then a Hummer vs. a tractor trailer (semi truck). This is a totally different situation.

Like I said, it is all about the masses of the vehicles in the collisions (assuming all else equal between collisions besides the vehicles' masses).

It looks like we are on the same page. Just misunderstandings of what the other was saying.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I opt instead to drive with the assumption the rest of the people on the road are likely idiots (because many of them are), and exercise maximum vigilance and awareness while learning not to rush and to pick caution over haste. -Spyder


I think you nailed it! What I've also noticed is many of the foul weather accidents are caused by Land Yachts. People feel because they drive a 4x4, PU, or SUV that they can speed in rain, snow, and ice. Many of them learn the hard way that this isn't the case. Driving thinking those around you are idiots is a smart move. That's my mindset.

I also noticed many accidents are caused by the little guys too, many drive like the pros in the Daytona 500 drive, drafting other cars or darting in and out. Lets not talk about motorcycles.........................


You are exactly right on driving too fast in foul weather. Many people with 4x4 drive really fast in the snow, they don't realize the greater mass is hard to stop. I have an Avalanche, Its so heavy its really hard to stop it on ice and snow, sure i can accelerate but its a bear to stop it.
 
All the people talking about all the wrecks they had in their SUVs Explorers or F150s...

Did you ever think of all the accidents that small MANOVERABLE small cars just don't HAVE?

Some vehicles that are much more nimble and less roll over prone than your road yachts just avoid some of those accidents altogether.
 
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