Extreme short trip/stop-go

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: SAM1
Okayyyyyyyyyyy.....but I just do not understand how or why a synthetic would not be better for an engine running under severe service/short trips. I thought the entire notion of producing a synthetic oil was to provide more and better protection. Now it sounds as if I'm hearing that synthetic provides no additional protectin whatsoever compared to a conventional oil. (???)

Synthetic oil is superior in extreme cold (Alaska), extreme heat (turbocharged applications), and very long OCI. In my opinion he experiences neither of these. With very short trip, he will have excessive water condensation and possibly fuel dillution, and synthetic will not stop it from happening. He just needs to change the oil early. So, since he won't be pushing very long OCIs, why waste money on expensive oil?

 

[Dr_No]

OK, i'm thinking cheap dino changed every 3 months

 

[Quattro Pete]

What's the price difference betw. a decent dino oil and cheap synthetic where you live?

 

[Towel_Rail]

5 km? That's like... 3 miles.

Might be better for you and your car just to hoof it!

 

[Dr_No]

Cheapest dino is Esso extra for 3.29
Synthetics like Tech 2000 start at 5.66 to 8.99 for amsoil.

 

[UncleRunkle]

I too have severe short trip service for both of my vehicles...I wish that walking or biking was an option, but the amount of equipment I take back and forth to work, and all the kids my wife hauls back and forth from school, as well as the time saved from driving versus walking/biking is a big factor. I make 6~8 trips a day that are all less than 3 miles and all stop and go at less than 50mph (majority around 25mph). Both of my vehicles have sumps over 6.5qts. I use premium synthetic oils and change anually, with a filter at 6 months for the insoluables.

It is surprising that everybody seems to lean toward "Cheap oil changed often". Synthetic oils are supposed to offer improved resistance to oxidation and the effects of fuel dilution given the same situation versus conventional fluid, are they not? So I can't understand why people think there would be no benefit (read: better protection) from running synthetic in a given interval.

 

[Dr_No]

What synthetic are you using right now?

 

[va3ux]

If there ever was a case of "3 months or 5000 km, whichever comes first" for OCI, this is it. This really is what the car companies refer to as Severe Service. If it were me I'd probably be changing it every 2 months but I'd probably back that up with a UOA or 2 as well (if it were me).

You're a bit better off now with API SM than you would have been a few years with SJ or SL. API SM requires improved performance for low temp sludging as I recall.

Lower mainland BC does not get cold at all so I too would say use dino and change often. Esso dino is probably fine, but don't overlook Pennzoil yellow bottle which is often on sale at Wally Mart and Canadian Tire. It's a good performing oil with UOAs on this site to prove it. I don't think there are any UOAs for the Esso dinos so Esso may be a bit of an unknown quantity is terms of performance.

 

[Dr_No]

I do have Pennzoil 5w30 in my stash, and enough of it for another change. I am picking up a Finning S.O.S lube sample container today and will send out an oil sample next change (2months).
The reason I can't send the recent sample is the jar I took it in dosen't hold enough.

I am just waiting to see if I need a headgasket repair more than anything. I am playing safe until I know for sure

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: SAM1
I thought synthetic would be better for an engine running in extreme conditions like this..??? I still wonder why so many people want to prescribe cheap arse dino for an engine that is being driving under severe conditions. ???


My wife drives the following;

5:30 am 1/2 mile to kickboxing
6:30 am 1/2 mile back home
7:15 am take kid to school 2 miles, turns off car for 2 mins to help with taking stuff to class, then drives home.
10:00am drives less than 5 miles to take care of shopping and check in with older Aunt.
11:00am drives back home.
3:30 pm drives back to school 2 miles and picks up kid, does the turn off for 2 mins to pick up stuff and comes home.

This is 3 times a week at the minimum.

My UOAs are perfect with conventional oils (most times when I have run syn in the SAME engine for the SAME use/OCI, the conventional oils have better numbers)

Even more important than a UOA is I get VERY long life out of my engines.

With yesterdays oils. Todays are better.

With frequent cycles on a engine that does not get warmed up, changing the oil is a GOOD thing. (no MATTER what type of oil you use)

Learn that cost ($$) does not equal better.

Take care, bill

 

[ProfPS]

Originally Posted By: UncleRunkle

...

It is surprising that everybody seems to lean toward "Cheap oil changed often". Synthetic oils are supposed to offer improved resistance to oxidation and the effects of fuel dilution given the same situation versus conventional fluid, are they not? So I can't understand why people think there would be no benefit (read: better protection) from running synthetic in a given interval.


Moisture.

Moisture (condensation) is more of a concern during the winter months than summer months because of the the colder outside temperature squeezing water vapor out of the air and water droplets accumulating on solid sufaces. It is found in engines, engine oil, exhaust systems, and other components. The only way to remove moisture is to burn it off through running/driving that generates heat and replacing fluids prone to absorbing moisture. Dino on the average is thicker and will cause the engine to generate more heat than syn, and cheaper for more frequent OCI's while providing adequate protection. Here is a link to a post on the same topic one month earlier than when this one started:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1008071&fpart=1

 

[Dr_No]

What causes sludge at low tempearture?
Oxidization? Thickening? Fuel Dilution?
All can be combated by 2-3 month oci's

 

[ProfPS]

Doc Haas wrote an interesting article on this subject posted on a Farrari forum. To paraphrase the article, heating and cooling motor oil is one contributor to thickening; it makes sense, take any heavy liquid and put it through multiple heating-cooling processes and it will be thicker at room temp as this process continues. Also, thicker oil will accumulate on colder surfaces thus contributing to sludge.

I believe the extent of the heating-cooling range is a major factor in this. Summer ambient temp to engine operating temp range (70-190F)is much narrower than winter ambient to operating temp range (in the north it could be 20-190F). This is an example because there are too many variables that effect operating temps - radiator size, thermostat temp, driving speed, rpms, ambient temp and humidity to name a few.

 

[UncleRunkle]

Originally Posted By: Dr_No
What synthetic are you using right now?


BG Hi-L0w30 in my wife's '01 Caddy Deville (4.6L Northstar) with Pureone Filter

Valvoline Maxlife Full Syn 5w30 in my '00 Jag S-type (4.0L V8)w/ a Mystery german-manufactured Purolator Premium (it's probably a Mann).

 

[UncleRunkle]

Originally Posted By: ProfPS
I believe the extent of the heating-cooling range is a major factor in this. Summer ambient temp to engine operating temp range (70-190F)is much narrower than winter ambient to operating temp range (in the north it could be 20-190F). This is an example because there are too many variables that effect operating temps - radiator size, thermostat temp, driving speed, rpms, ambient temp and humidity to name a few.


Which is why I change oil in Late fall so I have fresh oil in for winter driving when the temp differential is the greatest.

 

[gonesurfing]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


My UOAs are perfect with conventional oils (most times when I have run syn in the SAME engine for the SAME use/OCI, the conventional oils have better numbers)


Bill,

What is your OCI on this vehicle?

Thanks

 

[wander2039]

For 3 years (98-01) I drove 1 mile to school/work, same place, and 1 mile back in a 88 piece of junk S15(S10) with the 2.5L Iron duke. It never got up to temp during the week but I drove it to dad's 240 miles round trip 2-3 times a month on the weekends. I used Havoline 10w30 and fram filters back then. Never had any oil related issues, running and reliability issues whole other story. I saw the old truck recently and it was smoking terribly but it has been 5-6 years so mostly likely it was due to abuse by the current owner.

 

[Delphi]

I am facing the same issue, except the figures are slightly different. I drive 6 km. (4 miles) in the morning, on the way to the office, and the same distance in the afternoon, coming home. It could take 30 minutes in the morning and 45 up to 60 in the afternoon. Ambient temperature is pretty low in the winter: +30 to -20 degrees Fahrenheit.

I am wondering if the longer time I drive would somehow help to improve the conditions, or if these would worsen? I am using Valvoline Maxlife 5W40 full synthetic (SL), with a Mann filter in a Honda Civic 1997, 1.5L, SOHC-VTEC engine, with 120k miles on the odometer. I have added a bottle of VSOT at the last change of oil. The previous oil during the summer was Valvoline Maxlife 10W40 blend. OCI done at about 3k.

I do not know if there would be possible to send a sample of oil in the US to have an UOA, because here it is not possible to have one.

 

[kgb007stb]

I use to be in the same situation in my college days, I would drive around 1 to 2 miles max during the week, the engine never got to operating temps. I use to worry that this would somehow hurt the engine but even in those days when I did not understand what the UOA numbers meant nothing out of the ordinary. Now looking back at those UOAs, I had normal not elevated wear numbers. Once a month the car would see a 20 to 30 min freeway run to get up to normal operating temps. It took me 2 ½ years to make a 10K OCI. This is the reason why today I don’t even bother with cold operation, like it has been mentioned here before we may worry a little too much about cols start up. The only way to eliminate is not to drive.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: gonesurfing
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


My UOAs are perfect with conventional oils (most times when I have run syn in the SAME engine for the SAME use/OCI, the conventional oils have better numbers)


Bill,

What is your OCI on this vehicle?

Thanks

Well just got it back from the accident but I'm going to go with 6 months max or 7500 miles. I think I will do a UOA when I get to 4 months the first time to see if it needs to be changed before the 6month mark.

My last UOA incl a 3k mile trip which will be done only once a year. I'd rather be safe and change the oil early if the UOA shows the need (my oil changes are low cost. $7 for conventional and $8 for syn incl the filter)

Take care, Bill

PS: Sorry about being late in the reply, this new board software will not email anything to me...