Epidemic of bad paint on new vehicles?

[2strokeNorthstar]

Visiting various dealers over the last couple of years, I've seen a lot of really bad paint on pricey new vehicles. I'm talking 'seventies grade orange peel. Last Sunday we saw a 70K+ top of the tree SUV on display at a non-automotive venue and it had pretty bad orange peel, which looked worse in the black paint it wore.
I know it isn't the paint system allowed in this country, since my Ohio built Accord has perfect paint.
Is this no more than my anecdotal observation, or is there lots of bad paint out there. I'm not talking about minor imperfections but rather paint bad enough that you'd realistically tell the dealer to knock 10K off just to compensate for the unforgivably bad

Has been going on for a long time. 20 years ago or so Ford hired a company to find out what their faults were in the paint department. The company did tons of tests, came up with a huge report and what needed fixing. Fords solution? Fire them.
I notice at a stop light a black Escalade or Denali? It was new and black and the orange peel was bad. For a $100k vehicle that black paint should have a deep glossy shine, not a polished turd.
I have to give credit to Tesla, I have not noticed their paint peeling off yet. You notice Ford/GM vehicles starting to have issues after just a few years

 

[chris719]

A good amount of orange peel is intentional to mask minor defects. Every car with modern processes is going to have quite a bit unless it's a top end Rolls or something that might get wetsanded by hand. I have to assume the issues with some brands are prep related or cost cutting. My 2010 Mazda 3 had some of the worst paint I have seen on a new car, especially on the vertical surfaces, and the least durable clear. I don't think it's any thinner than what the Germans use, I think it's harder / more brittle and doesn't stand up to small impacts as well.

I'm not sure paint quality is declining as a trend though. I've seen some good paint on new MB and BMW cars. The best paint on any new car that I've had was my 2021 M2 and by a mile. I asked the dealer not to touch it and they left the shipping film in place. I cleaned it and it didn't need any polishing. Not a mark or swirl on any panel. The orange peel was perhaps a touch less than expected. BMW likes orange peel so you're gonna get some. People complain but they are far from the worst.

 

[chris719]

Hyun/Kia and Honda had issues with white paint recently. Nissan has struggled with darker paint for years. The orange peel on my Hyundai is really pretty bad. Paint quality may be dropping, but what's worse is the lack of color. Seems like unless you get the top most trim level, your options are some variety of dark blue, black, white, or three shades of gray. Even Honda has seemingly gone away from their staple champagne (what they called sandstone) color. New car colors are boring.

I think the quality by color thing is largely a myth or simply a batch QC issue. They are sprayed base and then sprayed or powdered clear (or base, tintcoat, clear for some higher end options) The same clear is used for all base colors. The orange peel and defects tend to just be more visible with dark colors. If you have issues in the base coat, that's one thing, but the clear is the same. This was a huge myth that still perpetuates on BMW forums regarding Jet Black non-metallic paint being "softer" than the metallic black. I've polished both and it's not true. You just see absolutely everything on non-metallic black.

 

[Skippy722]

Not really.
I've never seen a Toy, a Honda or a Subie in bad factory paint.
The vehicles I saw that looked really bad were from American nameplates, one founded by Billy Durant and the other wearing a recentlty invented moniker.
They were truly bad and in no way acceptable as anything more than fleet vehilces.

Toyota was having problems up until 2019.

That being said, my Ram has decent paint.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10170718-9999.pdf

 

[PF52]

I've never seen a Toy, a Honda or a Subie in bad factory paint.

Certain Hondas have particularly bad paint matching between panels, as if each door, fender and bumper were all painted separately and from different directions. Metallic colors mostly but its especially noticeable in silver. I read about it here on the forum years ago but it's one of those things that once you notice it you see it all the time.

 

[64bawagon]

I thought most cars were painted by robot now?

While thats true, the system still needs regular maintenance and monitoring to keep it operating correctly.

 

[dfarr67]

You can be happy with your shiney new paint, my experience with a 15 honda accord has been less than stellar for flaking off after a few years- whatever they saved on the initial paint- they have more than expensed fixing the f*ups.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Visiting various dealers over the last couple of years, I've seen a lot of really bad paint on pricey new vehicles. I'm talking 'seventies grade orange peel. Last Sunday we saw a 70K+ top of the tree SUV on display at a non-automotive venue and it had pretty bad orange peel, which looked worse in the black paint it wore.
I know it isn't the paint system allowed in this country, since my Ohio built Accord has perfect paint.
Is this no more than my anecdotal observation, or is there lots of bad paint out there. I'm not talking about minor imperfections but rather paint bad enough that you'd realistically tell the dealer to knock 10K off just to compensate for the unforgivably bad paint.

Perhaps this will become more common.

EcoPaintJet – Overspray-Free Paint Application - Dürr

The more individual, the better, and colors are no exception. Customers are increasingly asking for decorative and contrasting colors – a two-tone roof for

www.durr.com

 

[chris719]

Perhaps this will become more common.

EcoPaintJet – Overspray-Free Paint Application - Dürr

The more individual, the better, and colors are no exception. Customers are increasingly asking for decorative and contrasting colors – a two-tone roof for

www.durr.com

Yeah, there are a lot of new technologies coming out based on inkjet-like deposition research.

I tried to find more info but I believe the Germans are now using powdered clear in the factory. Or, they were 23 years ago when this article was written. One of the benefits is more equal deposition on horizontal and vertical panels, which makes me wonder if this is what everyone is doing now or not. My older Mazda has horrific orange peel on the doors and very little on the hood, roof, etc.

Automotive OEM Powder Clearcoat

This article discusses the status of achievements on the Dingolfing lines, described from the view of the paint supplier.

www.pcimag.com

 

[PimTac]

I see many brands suffering from early clearcoat failure and what I call the mange as large portions of paint come off revealing the primer underneath. It’s either the process or the product.


I have had no issues with my Mazda other than a few rock chips over the years and that happens to any vehicle.

 

[nthach]

Automotive OEM Powder Clearcoat

This article discusses the status of achievements on the Dingolfing lines, described from the view of the paint supplier.

www.pcimag.com

PPG created the powder clear coat on request from BMW, it was an offshoot of industrial powder coating. The OEMs want both increased productivity in the paint shop, as well as lower costs - energy being the biggest one. BMW was also PPG’s first client for a 2:1 paint system that combined the undercoat and color coat into one. It’s the automotive equivalent of Behr’s “paint and primer” claim. The Japanese use a “one-cartridge” system in their paint robots for the base coat right after E-coat and corrosion protection.

Traditionally, just like house painters are loyal to a brand of paint(in that arena the war between Benjamin Moore and Sherwin-Williams is real, and PPG/SW(Valspar) so badly wants to compete with Behr for DIYers), the OEs were very tribal with paint. GM traditionally used DuPont(now Axalta) lacquer, FCA and Ford used PPG(Ditzler), Porsche used Standox and Mercedes was very loyal to Glasurit. Now, PPG counts Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari and Lambo as clients - they also make the Japanese OE paints(Kansai Paint/Nippon Paint) under license in Ohio, PPG also has a working relationship with Kansai Paint. BASF has worked with Ford and FCA, they along with ICI’s automotive paint business(also owned by PPG) created the world’s first waterborne paint system - Mercedes debuted it on the W140 S-Class, VW on the A3 Jetta/Golf from their Mexican plant. PPG and DuPont tried to copy the BASF waterborne tech in the 1990s but failed. Funny enough, PPG’s aftermarket waterborne systems(Envirobase HP/Aquabase Plus) are seen as the best system in collision repair alongside Glasurit 90 Series and Sikkens Autowave.

 

[chris719]

I see many brands suffering from early clearcoat failure and what I call the mange as large portions of paint come off revealing the primer underneath. It’s either the process or the product.


I have had no issues with my Mazda other than a few rock chips over the years and that happens to any vehicle.

I have clearcoat failure on my rear spoiler and hood. The trunk is perfectly fine, but the spoiler is basically gone. It's a 2010 but it definitely has aged poorly IMO. The spoiler started failing like 5 years ago but it's my beater and I just don't care. My parents have a new CX-5 and the paint quality appears much better than that car did when new.

 

[GMBoy]

I have worked in multiple GM plants and, to be honest, the paint is poor. The last plant, Arlington where I just retired, has a brand new paint shop and still no real improvement in the paint. The #1 problem (and has alway been since the 90's switch to water borne paint processes) is ENVIRONMENTAL. The older paints of years gone by were easier to use and dried uniform as well as other nice "quality" attributes. The the EPA came in and paints suffered terribly in it's ability to spray uniform and dry well while meeting tough EPA laws. Today's paintshops - like I have been in - is automated yet still have a lot of people doing preparations, paint sanding, repairs etc. The issue with orange peel is the OEMs trying to get the LEAST amount of paint on a car to be glossy and somewhat durable. Less paint means less cost and weight. Now the other end of the spectrum is dirt and craters etc in the paint. I cannot tell you how many craters or dirt specs you will see on a new GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade/Suburban but I can assure you that if go look at one you will see them all over. The hoods and upper 1/4 near the glass will ALL have them. It's a combination of not maintaining air filters, human element and the gov't regulations that have brought paint quality to the lowest level ever.

 

[CKN]

I have worked in multiple GM plants and, to be honest, the paint is poor. The last plant, Arlington where I just retired, has a brand new paint shop and still no real improvement in the paint. The #1 problem (and has alway been since the 90's switch to water borne paint processes) is ENVIRONMENTAL. The older paints of years gone by were easier to use and dried uniform as well as other nice "quality" attributes. The the EPA came in and paints suffered terribly in it's ability to spray uniform and dry well while meeting tough EPA laws. Today's paintshops - like I have been in - is automated yet still have a lot of people doing preparations, paint sanding, repairs etc. The issue with orange peel is the OEMs trying to get the LEAST amount of paint on a car to be glossy and somewhat durable. Less paint means less cost and weight. Now the other end of the spectrum is dirt and craters etc in the paint. I cannot tell you how many craters or dirt specs you will see on a new GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade/Suburban but I can assure you that if go look at one you will see them all over. The hoods and upper 1/4 near the glass will ALL have them. It's a combination of not maintaining air filters, human element and the gov't regulations that have brought paint quality to the lowest level ever.

So-I spent $50,000.00 large on a Silverado and it wasn't my imagination the paint was terrible. Good to know-it's been traded now anyway.

 

[parshisa]

it doesn't matter how bad the orange peel is, but not garaging the cars and using drive-through automatic car washes will destroy and clear-coat, and really won't matter anymore.

 

[parshisa]

i'm not sure if it is a coincidence, but my 6+ years old Civic's paint (built in UK) still swirl free and looks amazing. On the other hand, my wife's 7yr old Pilot (built in US), despite being treated the same as civic as far as ceramic coating and hand washing techniques go, full of swirls. I have to say that polishing pilot was a lot easier, clear coat felt a lot softer compared to civic.

 

[CKN]

it doesn't matter how bad the orange peel is, but not garaging the cars and using drive-through automatic car washes will destroy and clear-coat, and really won't matter anymore.

No they won't. Paint correction after several 100 auto car washes, maybe.-But they won't destroy the clear coat you realize they use lasers now in automatic car washes to adjust the equipment to your vehicle. And no the equipment are not "brushes either.

The myth auto car washes are inherently bad is spread (falsely) on the Internet.

 

[CanAmAndMore]

My daughter's best friend has a 2020 Toyota, the paint on its so bad, it looks like a 3 year old painted it with a rattle can.

 

[CanAmAndMore]

it doesn't matter how bad the orange peel is, but not garaging the cars and using drive-through automatic car washes will destroy and clear-coat, and really won't matter anymore.

The automatic car washes around this area are all touchless spray booms, they go around the vehicle, but don't actually touch it.
The spinning brushes popular in the 1980s are gone, at least here.

 

[dcd]

I have a 2018 Tundra and a 2021 RAV4, both with about 25k miles and Super White paint color. The RAV4 paint must be thinner because it has rock chips everywhere. I don’t think it can be a coincidence. I’ve never had a vehicle get so many rock chips.