Enginemasters new episode 4/30 oil filter showdown!

[ZeeOSix]

A better rig would have been a warmed-over SBF with a factory pump which would have given a much better volume/pressure.

That would have been interesting because in that case the result might have shown that the pump never went into relief with any of the oil filters used, and if so the oil volume and pressure curves would have all been the same.

And if the pump relief spring was stiffer (higher set relief npressure), that would most certainly be the case if the oil was at full operating temperature.

 

[DuckRyder]

I was a little disappointed in this one.

Why doesn't someone who does social media hit them up and see what they have to say, perhaps a well spoken argument would get them to re do it.

There is a guy on one of the Ford boards who has build an oil pump dyno, I have only skimmed it but some of his test seem show the curve from an oil pump may not be quite as regular and constant as one might expect.

thats all...

 

[ZeeOSix]

There is a guy on one of the Ford boards who has build an oil pump dyno, I have only skimmed it but some of his test seem show the curve from an oil pump may not be quite as regular and constant as one might expect.

It can certainly depend on the design of the pump. Some may cavitate at higher RPM, and that will affect how it performs on the top end.

Example:

 

[adams355]

The coolant temp in the run I screen captured is clearly 86F throughout the entire run.

That was the first run, I gave you a timeframe to look at but you did not.

 

[adams355]

Explain how the oil flow rate changes when it gets to the oil filter. That is what you keep saying happens ever since post #66.

If the delta p is different the flow through to the filters clean side is different. The delta p itself proves the filter is a restriction. Adding the filter itself is a restriction which is my point. A high flowing filter provides more flow and more HP especially at 13gpm flow rates or 30+ for full race motors. Are you saying we can run a fram ultra on a nascar without significant restriction and a loss of HP.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If the delta p is different the flow through to the filters clean side is different. The delta p itself proves the filter is a restriction. Adding the filter itself is a restriction which is my point.

The same exact oil volume that flows into the filter must also flows out of the filter. That's why it's called a "full flow oil filter", and that's how it works.

If 5 GPM leaves the oil pump then 5 GPM will flow into the filter and out of the filter. That's how it works, so I don't know how you can explain how it can do anything different, like your claim that the filter changes the incoming flow volume. As said before, that's physically impossible.

Yes, a delta-p across the filter (or anything else in the flow path) proves there is a restriction, but it does not change the flow volume if the flow volume from the PD pump outlet is constant at a constant RPM. Please explain further if you don't agree with that fact.

A high flowing filter provides more flow and more HP especially at 13gpm flow rates or 30+ for full race motors. Are you saying we can run a fram ultra on a nascar without significant restriction and a loss of HP.

As the HHP/BHP equations show, the amount of BHP used to overcome flow restriction is very small. How much do you think it is? ... have you ran the numbers? I have ... you'd be lucky to see even a 0.2 HP gain if you ran the engine with no oil filter on a normal high performance street car.

A Fram Ultra (as well as other off the self synthetic media filtes) flows very well - go look at those plots I referenced. They probably would not be ideal for a NASCAR, but now you're really going off on a tangent. Engine Masters weren't testing oil filters on a NASCAR, and people don't drive NASCARs on the streets.

 

[adams355]

If 5 GPM leaves the oil pump then 5 GPM will flow into the filter and out of the filter.

5 GPM at what pressure... The engine is not truly a sealed system like a hydraulic system would be, an engine system lubes some parts by drain back. Have you seen oiling through clear covers.

 

[ZeeOSix]

5 GPM at what pressure... The engine is not truly a sealed system like a hydraulic system would be, an engine system lubes some parts by drain back. Have you seen oiling through clear covers.

At what ever pressure it takes the PD pump to move 5 GPM through the oiling system. If 5 GPM leaves the pump, then 5 GPM will be going through the oil filter ... nothing different can happen, like the oil volume becoming reduced somehow between the pump and filter. That just can't happen unless a big hole blows out the main oil gallery in the side of the block between the pump and filter. Yes, I'm well aware of how oiling systems are designed and have seen the inside of many engines.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If the engine was at a constant 4,000 RPM and the PD was putting out a constant 5 GPM with 80 PSI output pressure, then the flow path pressure drops would be something like this. There is a 5 PSI pressure drop (delta-p) across the filter, and a 75 PSI pressure drop across the whole engine's oiling system.

Sump ---> Pump --(80 PSI)--> Filter --(75 PSI)--> Engine Oiling System --(0 PSI)--> Sump

The oil filter only contributes 5 PSI pressure drop (6.25%) out of the total 80 PSI pressure drop between the pump and sump. The other 93.75% of the pressure drop is across the engine's oiling system. That also means of the total BHP (0.40 HP assuming 60% mechanical efficient pump) required to move the 5 GPM with 80 PSI supply pressure is also spit across the same percentages.

 

[adams355]

At what ever pressure it takes the PD pump to move 5 GPM through the oiling system. If 5 GPM leaves the pump, then 5 GPM will be going through the oil filter ... nothing different can happen, like the oil volume becoming reduced somehow between the pump and filter. That just can't happen unless a big hole blows out the main oil gallery in the side of the block between the pump and filter. Yes, I'm well aware of how oiling systems are designed and have seen the inside of many engines.

Why do you think it will travel at 5 GPM through the filter, oil pressure or 'flow' is only constant at the pump.

Local pressure after the oil filter (at the crankshaft journal and bearing) is far higher than the 50, 60 psi. Set by the pump's relief valve, and will reach hundreds of psi. This higher pressure is developed by the relative speeds in feet per second (not RPM or journal size directly) of the crankshaft journal itself against the bearing, the bearing width (to the closest pressure leak), oil viscosity, and temperature, balanced against the bearing clearance (the leakage rate).

All pump pressure does is "fill in the hole" and refresh the oil in the annular space faster than the leak expels it. This is why low-speed engines have relatively large journals, with only modest pump size and pressure. Low pressure indicates that leakage from the bearings is higher than the pump's delivery rate.

You are talking about 5 GPM try 13+ that's what most modified and race cars are running up to 30+.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Why do you think it will travel at 5 GPM through the filter, oil pressure or 'flow' is only constant at the pump.

No wonder you have a big misconception going on. Think about it, if 5 GPM leaves the pump and goes straight to the oil filter, where else is that 5 GPM going to go? It has to go through the filter, because that's how oiling systems with full flow filters are designed.

 

[ZeeOSix]

You are talking about 5 GPM try 13+ that's what most modified and race cars are running up to 30+.

15 GPM forced through a system with a 100 PSI pressure source from a 60% mechanically efficient PD pump will eat up 1.46 BHP. And if the oil filter in that scenario had say 12 PSI of pressure drop, that would be 0.18 BHP of that 1.46 BHP. So 0.18 out of 1.46 is only 12.3%. Again, oil filters are pretty much a non-issue in terms of "eating up" BHP from an engine. What kind of number do you think it was going to be?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Local pressure after the oil filter (at the crankshaft journal and bearing) is far higher than the 50, 60 psi. Set by the pump's relief valve, and will reach hundreds of psi. This higher pressure is developed by the relative speeds in feet per second (not RPM or journal size directly) of the crankshaft journal itself against the bearing, the bearing width (to the closest pressure leak), oil viscosity, and temperature, balanced against the bearing clearance (the leakage rate).

The pump's pressure relief valve has absolutely nothing to do with the pressures developed inside journal bearings. The only thing the pump pressure relief valve does is control the pump output pressure to a maximum PSI so the pump, filter and oiling system doesn't get over pressurized and damaged. Don't know where you're getting this information.

 

[adams355]

No wonder you have a big misconception going on. Think about it, if 5 GPM leaves the pump and goes straight to the oil filter, where else is that 5 GPM going to go? It has to go through the filter, because that's how oiling systems with full flow filters are designed.

It is going through the filter at a restriction. Too easy, you can word it however you like but its a known fact. Unless you have invented new mathematics you are not seeing the connection and at that you are calculating all of your formula's on water and not oil viscosity.

You should call someone at Nascar because all the work that has been done is wrong apparently and a Fram Ultra is just as good as any other oil filter they put on there for flow and HP. You keep denying things in the engine masters video claiming the oil wasn't hot and the pump was in relief.

I put the other information up there from Wikipedia so you better take it up with them, but any information you are given is pulled apart, interesting isn't it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It is going through the filter at a restriction. Too easy you can word it however you like but its a known fact. Unless you have invented new mathematics you are not seeing the connection and at that you are calculating all of your formula's on water and not oil viscosity.

Doesn't matter if it's going through the filter, or through the whole oiling system "at a restriction". Everything is a restriction to flow, and that's what causes the PD pump to build pressure in order to force the oil volume leaving the pump through the restriction. It's still a fact that if 5 GPM leaves the pump then 5 GPM goes through the filter and then the engine oiling system.

How does 5 GPM leaving the pump magically become less than 5 GPM by the time it gets to the oil filter? Nothing you've said or shown proves that. I'm beginning to think you're either totally not understanding simple oiling system operstion, or you're on a big trolling fest.

BTW, you do know that water is denser than any motor oil, right - oil floats on water. So even if the SG of oil was used, it would result in even slightly less required BHP to pump the oil.

You should call someone at Nascar because all the work that has been done is wrong apparently and a Fram Ultra is just as good as any other oil filter they put on there for flow and HP. You keep denying things in the engine masters video claiming the oil wasn't hot and the pump was in relief.

Go back and read again what I said about the NASCAR and Ultra. You're spinning and twisting things up now. Fact is, any good flowing filter like the Ultra would be fine for any high performance street car. NASCARs are not driven on the streets.

Why do you think the pump wasn't in relief? Seems to me you don't even really understand what the pump pressure relief is for, or how it actually works based on what you said in post #90.

I put the other information up there from Wikipedia so you better take it up with them, but any information you are given is pulled apart, interesting isn't it.

I think you need to go do a bunch more research on PD pumps, oil filters and engine oiling systems. And stop watching "Engine Masters" videos which seem to produce misconceptions.

 

[adams355]

Lol everyone is a troll here. You started at zero restriction even though there is a bypass in the filter. Less flow, more HP to maintain but you wouldn't see it on any fram ultra because at high revs and HP it will be constantly in bypass. So do you want high flow then.

 

[OVERKILL]

That was the first run, I gave you a timeframe to look at but you did not.

It was most definitely not the first run. Did you read the heading on the dyno? "Final C test FRAM racing B", the first run was the FRAM Extra Guard.

Here's the temp from the FRAM Extra Guard run, which is even lower:

The FRAM Racing was the third run.

Coolant temp not being tightly controlled makes this even worse. That's the whole point of a controlled test, to understand your variables and keep them in check.

BTW, they did run the test with absolutely no filter, and it did not improve power output.

Interestingly, and bringing in even more variables, coolant temp was clearly being measured in two different locations. The one for the data logging that we see in the charts I've posted snaps of, and the one that is showing on the dyno screen:

Which clearly shows some variability.

You'll note one is coolant out, the other coolant in. So, my takeaway here is that the coolant exiting the engine was between 155 and 165F, while the coolant entering the engine, from the dyno cooler was ~84-87F.

You can see the temp drop rapidly when they shut it off to 112F.

Oil temp is also low, but seems better controlled, at least based on where they have the sensor located. "Operating temp" for oil is ~100C (212F).

 

[OVERKILL]

As the HHP/BHP equations show, the amount of BHP used to overcome flow restriction is very small. How much do you think it is? ... have you ran the numbers? I have ... you'd be lucky to see even a 0.2 HP gain if you ran the engine with no oil filter on a normal high performance street car.

They actually ran the engine with no filter, it made no difference.

 

[OVERKILL]

Lol everyone is a troll here. You started at zero restriction even though there is a bypass in the filter. Less flow, more HP to maintain but you wouldn't see it on any fram ultra because at high revs and HP it will be constantly in bypass. So do you want high flow then.

Nobody is trolling you, we are simply trying to explain a concept here that you are so certain you already understand that you are unwilling to pause, take a second, and think about what is being presented.

What I've explained, and Zee has explained is that when the pump is not on the relief, the oil filter is "transparent" in the flow through the system; it has no impact in how much oil enters the rest of the engine.

All of the other factors you mentioned aren't relevant to what we are discussing, since the filter is the FIRST thing after the pump, the oil has nowhere to go but through the filter, think about it. If the pump is not on the relief and it displaces 1 gallon of oil, where does that gallon of oil go? It MUST go through the filter.

This is why both of us mentioned the differential pressure across the filter (delta-p) which shows you the restriction of the filter itself.

Let's look at three values in the context of what is being discussed:
Flow: 5gpm
PSI after the pump, before the filter: 65psi
PSI after the filter, before the rest of the oil system: 60psi

If you take the filter out in the above scenario, the measured pressure at both locations would be 60psi. The filter introduces a restriction that requires 5psi more pressure to overcome.

If we take the same scenario but introduce a partially plugged filter:
Flow: 5gpm
PSI after the pump, before the filter:75psi
PSI after the filter, before the rest of the oil system: 60psi

That's a 15psi differential and we've likely opened the media bypass on the filter, assuming it has one. We are still moving the same amount of oil, because our hypothetical pump here has no relief, so our oil pressure on the engine side; the resistance of the rest of the system at that volume, remains the same, but we are producing significantly more pressure on the pump outlet side because of the resistance imposed by the filter on the system.

In the context of the video this thread is about, since the engine is on the pump relief the entire time, the flow through the system varies based on the resistance, which isn't being measured, on the feed side of the filter. All we are seeing is the result of the pressure drop across the media on the far side. At 66psi on the post-filter side at 3,000RPM, we would be 70+psi on the feed side.

With no filter, the pressure was 79psi at peak:

So, the other results give you an idea of the pressure drop across each of the filters. With no relief in play, it would all be relative to that baseline. This is muddied, unfortunately, by the fact that the pump was on the relief, which is why volume changed. You can see the lowest pressure drop was with the "clear view" filter which only introduced a tiny restriction and so had basically no impact on volume shunted back to the feed-side of the pump. The filter with the highest apparent pressure drop, the small Delco filter, did not have the largest impact on flow though, which highlights the inherent variability in dealing with a pump on the relief, as its operating is not going to be 100% the same every time and small changes in oil/coolant temperature, which in turn change viscosity, may be impacting all of these results unfortunately.

If they had included pressure both before and after the filter, we'd have actually seen the pressure drop for each of the filters, which would have shown, also, whether the media bypass was coming into play, useful information.

The biggest restriction in the oiling system is the engine. That's what generates your oil pressure. Yes, it's a leaky series of orifices but the pressure needed to jam that volume into that system is what we are measuring. Compared to that, the restriction imposed by the oil filter is small. Not only is it small, but it is also limited by the media bypass which sets a ceiling for how much differential pressure is permitted; how much restriction is allowed to be imposed by the filter media. This would be obvious if delta-p had been measured as part of this test, which I know I keep circling back to, but that's because it's particularly germane to this discussion and would have helped with what is being discussed.

 

[adams355]

Compared to that, the restriction imposed by the oil filter is small. Not only is it small, but it is also limited by the media bypass which sets a ceiling for how much differential pressure is permitted; how much restriction is allowed to be imposed by the filter media.

I don't disagree with this but it is a measurable amount of BHP at the high limits of flow. And apart from small gains in HP we see the added advantage that a higher flowing media will not see bypass until much later. Hopefully, they will revisit the episode to discuss whether the engine was in relief etc. Also, it seems forever that anyone will correctly test for the filter bypass. Cheers.