Engine temp before oil change?

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When doing an oil analysis the recommendation is to drain within 5 minutes of stopping the engine i.e. at operating temperature.

If you wait longer than this the particles in the oil start to settle and you may get an inaccurate reading e.g.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30107/oil-sample-agitation

You would have exactly the same problem when changing oil. Thus change the oil when it is hot.

:-)

"Too often oil samples are taken when machines are at rest (not when they are running). Sometimes this is avoidable, but sometimes it is not. Live oil samples are always best. Circulation keeps the fluid homogenous at the time the sample is taken. Lack of fluid circulation causes particle settling and sedimentation (see Figures 1-4). The longer the delay between when a machine is turned off (stopping oil movement) and when the oil is sampled, the greater the number of particles not received in the sample bottle.

Particles are like data. This data provides important information that can prescribe a needed corrective action. When particles settle out of the oil, you lose data. This lost data may prevent you from being aware of an abnormally high particle count or advanced machine wear condition. This would produce a false negative in the oil analysis results. This means the oil’s condition may be falsely reported to be better than reality.



Evidence of particle sedimentation shows up in oil sumps and reservoir bottoms. Sampling the bottom of the sump or reservoir provides little help since the sludge and sediment that accumulate there are a repository of data spanning weeks, months or even years.

This is not representative of the current conditions, including the health of the oil, the contaminant level of the oil and the active rate of machine wear."
 
When to change the oil is more obvious if you do a microscopic examination of wear metals in your oil:

https://www.mainlube.com.au/filtergram/

If you fail to take your sample within 5 minutes of stopping the engine all the largest particles will have dropped out of the oil (remain in the engine).

BTW: It's the largest particles that cause the most wear.

Thus changing the oil when cold will leave behind many of the largest particles. Other than causing wear... particles in your oil also use up your additive package i.e. Your oil won't work as well or last as long.

:-)
 
Its actually the smaller particles that cause the most wear 10-20 microns being the worst that's why it important to do regular oil changes because that's the only way you can get them out. It makes the oil filter much more important on extended drain intervals as well.

I drive my car and get it to operating temp then drain the oil nice and hot, just be careful when you pull the sump plug out.
 
If you fail to take your sample within 5 minutes of stopping the engine all the largest particles will have dropped out of the oil (remain in the engine).

BTW: It's the largest particles that cause the most wear.

Thus changing the oil when cold will leave behind many of the largest particles. Other than causing wear... particles in your oil also use up your additive package i.e. Your oil won't work as well or last as long.

:)
I'm curious as to where are these particles are going if they dropped out of the oil? FTR I drive a few minutes, park, get the tools out and change the oil. The oil is warm enough to safely handle [gloves are on], it flows out nice and fast. The engine is off no more than a few minutes before the oil is draining. I'm certain the particles are in suspension and are getting drained with the oil. I leave the drain plug out for close to an hour, sometimes more. I seriously doubt that is causing any problems, or additional engine wear. Keep in mind there is always going to be some residual oil remaining inside the engine, no matter what.
 
I'm curious as to where are these particles are going if they dropped out of the oil?

Particles will sit in your sump or in your engine if they're not in your oil.

I'm certain the particles are in suspension and are getting drained with the oil.

So was I until I asked the companies that do the tests. It's the really big particles that stay behind. Yes you do get the small stuff... which can mislead you.

:-)
 
Its actually the smaller particles that cause the most wear 10-20 microns

Those are the larger particles I was referring to.
The oil filter will remove anything much bigger than this as they filter 30-40 micron particles.

The smaller particles that don't do much damage are in the range
N.B. SAE says that 2-22 micron particles are the ones that do all the damage

:-)
 
Particles will sit in your sump or in your engine if they're not in your oil.



So was I until I asked the companies that do the tests. It's the really big particles that stay behind. Yes you do get the small stuff... which can mislead you.
Sorry I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I would have an easier time believing it if the engine sat cold over night and the oil was changed the following day w/o running the car, or the car sat for a few hours after running it and draining the oil.
 
The oil filter will remove anything much bigger than this as they filter 30-40 micron particles.
^^^ Will or will not ?

Lots of high efficiency oil filters out there filter down to 99% >20μ, and are therefore also around 70-80% >5μ.
 
Hot, with the Earthquake battery ratchet I can back out the plug and not be in too much danger of getting burned and not leave too much of a mess. And after it has drained and cooled a while, with the plug still off, I run about 8oz of clean oil down it so it could displace dirty oil and rinse out more sludge. Usually I am up on the ramps and give it about an hour to cool before the last burst and refilling. The 4Runner is a little more difficult in that the plug is straight down as opposed to having a slight angle, just a little messier on the ratchet...
 
To me the most significant advantage of changing the oil warm is that the bearings and pistons have been fully oiled at least within the last hour or so before that first post OC start where engine is going to run dry for 3-5 seconds before oil pressure is reestablished.

A cold oil change creates the opposite scenario. The dry start occur on an engine where the oil has had all night to drain out of the places it most needs to be.
I avoid this issue by using Magnatec! The intelligent molecules always cling to my bearings, hot or cold. 😁

Seriously though, has anyone taken two samples from the same engine - one hot and one cold - and sent them for UOA? This would finally settle the hot/cold debate; at least, it would determine whether hot oil contains more particulates than cold.
 
Seriously though, has anyone taken two samples from the same engine - one hot and one cold - and sent them for UOA? This would finally settle the hot/cold debate; at least, it would determine whether hot oil contains more particulates than cold.
That would be interesting. That said, I wonder if it matters—for this crowd? How many of us here are really running the motor oil until its bitter end? As opposed to changing early so we sleep better at night?

Whether it stays in suspension or not, just how much does it matter if the oil is changed long before loading becomes a problem?
 
Bottom line, I don't think it matters all that much as long as you are doing regular oil changes. Personally I prefer to drain oil hot after sitting 10-15 minutes, for several reasons but primarily these two: hot oil drains faster & more completely, and driving with hot oil has stirred up stuff that may have settled on the bottom of the pan (everything comes out as much as possible).
 
...has anyone taken two samples from the same engine - one hot and one cold - and sent them for UOA? This would finally settle the hot/cold debate; at least, it would determine whether hot oil contains more particulates than cold.
The companies doing oil analysis recommend taking an oil sample when hot (within 5 minutes of stopping) because the big particles start to drop out of solution if you wait any longer (refer responses above).

However here's another simple analogy:
https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/why-is-hot-water-a-better-solvent-than-cold-water/

:)
 
Lots of high efficiency oil filters out there filter down to 99% >20μ, and are therefore also around 70-80% >5μ.

According to the Ryco (oil filter manufacturer) their standard filter filters >35 micron:
https://www.ryco.co.nz/catalogue/part/index/part/Z56B

~99% of cars on the road will be running similar filters.

There are a few higher efficiency oil filters out there but they don't seem very popular?
N.B. The highest efficiency oil filter is a bypass filter. They remove particles to A simple spin-on bypass filter is usually the best compromise.

Centrifugal filtration also works brilliantly... but very few people use it due to high prices.

:-)
 
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