Engine Damage caused from 0W20/5W20?

I AM gonna "go there". We can't have an individual storming in and dissing contributors to this thread without having the qualifications and/or technical background to do so. Maybe this individual is qualified to chew us out. I don't know.

If this gets me barred from this forum, so be it!
😂 ... this is a public chat board you know. So what you read is only upon you to take as accurate or not. Been that way since the very first chat board came into existence.
 
The original question asked back 9 years ago was:

"Has anyone heard of any documented evidence or even credible rumors that someone running 0W20 or 5W20 has had engine damage or increased wear?"

Documented evidence has yet to surface that using 0W20 or 5W20 "has had [caused] engine damage or increased wear?"

"credible rumors" is indeed an oxymoron.
There have been a few studies posted over the years on BITOG that showed increased wear can happen as the HTHS goes below 2.6 cSt. Most xW-20 oils have a HTHS of around 2.6-2.7 cSt and xW-30 around 3.0-3.1 cSt.

This is a good example why you wouldn't want to run a xW-20 in harsh use conditions where there is elevated oil temperature and higher engine RPM. This is why even some vehicle manufacturers in the USA (CAFE driven) still include a statement in the OM to use something thicker than the "recommend" xW-20 when severe use conditions like high speed driving and towing. So I'd say yeah, there is proof that xW-20 can cause increased wear under certain conditions.

Piston Ring Wear vs HTHS at 130C Oil Temp(2).JPG
 
😂 ... this is a public chat board you know. So what you read is only upon you to take as accurate or not. Been that way since the very first chat board came into existence.
Some of us who were around since the days of early modems and BBS and newsgroups and email groups know this, LOL
Mike B
 
No damage in a engine that was designed for it.
Excellent point and I thought the original question was in the context of running XW20 oils in engines designed for that viscosity.

Should I run an XW20 in the Trailblazers 5.3L V8 at 90 mph (3500-4000 rpm) all day?; don't think so because that engine was designed for 30 grade oils.

And whose daily driver oil temperature gets to 266F (130C) and under what conditions?
 
Excellent point and I thought the original question was in the context of running XW20 oils in engines designed for that viscosity.
...
And whose daily driver oil temperature gets to 266F (130C) and under what conditions?
True, but certain members love to claim, or at least imply, that using xW-20 in any engine is highly risky, merely because some (mostly now obsolete) engines proved to wear more on it in some circumstances.
 
Excellent point and I thought the original question was in the context of running XW20 oils in engines designed for that viscosity.

Should I run an XW20 in the Trailblazers 5.3L V8 at 90 mph (3500-4000 rpm) all day?; don't think so because that engine was designed for 30 grade oils.

And whose daily driver oil temperature gets to 266F (130C) and under what conditions?
I'd like to see that same wear vs HTHS graph in post #142 when there's a lot of fuel dilution, which will certainly reduce the HTHS of the oil. I'd never run a xW-20 in an engine with known fuel dilution, regardless of the vehicle's use conditions.
 
Excellent point and I thought the original question was in the context of running XW20 oils in engines designed for that viscosity.

Should I run an XW20 in the Trailblazers 5.3L V8 at 90 mph (3500-4000 rpm) all day?; don't think so because that engine was designed for 30 grade oils.

And whose daily driver oil temperature gets to 266F (130C) and under what conditions?
Should you be driving the dog snot out of an engine? Don't matter if it's 20 or 30 grade. Abuse will destroy any engine.
 
I see no reason not to trust the engineers when it comes to oil viscosity. When OEM’s invest millions upon millions of dollars to design a new family of engines, you can be assured that the oil viscosity was decided very, very early on in the development process. Every widespread engine failure that comes to mind in the past 20+ years have been the result of either a design problem, or a specific part supplier problem. Toyota piston ring coking was a design problem with the drain holes, the Honda VCT rattle is an issue with the VCT locking pin, the GM 3.6 Timing chain stretch was the result of insufficiently hardened chain links, the Hyundai Theta II debacle and Hyundai Nu engine piston slap were both the result of inferior design and/or metallurgy issues, the GM AFM lifter failures are due either a faulty design or defective lifters, ditto for the Chrysler Hemi DOD.

The manufacturer specified oil viscosity grade is rarely ever the issue, unless you are using the vehicle beyond its intended means.
 

"Due to their greatly reduced volatility and good low-temperature performance, new base oils of API Group II-IV allow the formulation of lighter automotive viscosity grade oils,such as SAE 5W-40, 0W-30 and even 0W-20, to achieve better fuel economy. However, as explained in Figure 4, the use of thinner base oils increases the risk of engine wear unless appropriate friction modifiers are simultaneously deployed in the formulations. By shifting the Stribeck curve to the left in Figure 2, friction modifiers cause an equivalent shift of the wear and the frictional losses curves in Figure 4. The result is that the “optimal viscosity” point corresponding to the greatest fuel economy also is shifted to the left, towards lower viscosities. In practice, however, it is wise to prefer a somewhat heavier oil to a somewhat lighter one to further minimize wear."

Relationship between engine oil viscosity, engine wear and fuel economy.JPG
 
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True, but certain members love to claim, or at least imply, that using xW-20 in any engine is highly risky, merely because some (mostly now obsolete) engines proved to wear more on it in some circumstances.
100% in agreement here.
 
True, but certain members love to claim, or at least imply, that using xW-20 in any engine is highly risky, merely because some (mostly now obsolete) engines proved to wear more on it in some circumstances.
Here's the rub: Some people who owned those engines you referenced and used xW-20 [because the fill cap had it printed on it, and it was in the OM] when they came to find they had more wear because they drove under those certain circumstances, they were SOL. Or the people who bought cars and found out the mfg later changed the spec from xW-20 to xW-30 because they discovered a 30 grade was really the better choice. Any damage done can't be reversed. Or people that were informed their OLM had to be re-calibrated because the OCI algorithm was programmed for an OCI which was too long. My point is sometimes thinking out of the box is the better way to go. FTR this didn't happen in every engine calling for a 20 grade oil, or that has an OLM, but it happened. It's safe to say anyone it happened to that was an enthusiast, like many here was not a happy camper.

I'm older than most on the board, maybe that's why I don't always follow things on blind faith. I'm also a fan of new technology, but in the case of two of my current vehicles. My 08 Liberty in particular, all they did from 2007-2008 was change the design, and stick a 5W20 fill cap on the 3.7L engine in place of the 5W30 fill cap. Then printed on the OM to only use 5W20 oil. As far as I can see it was to grab some CAFE credits. Had they done a major redesign of the engine and built if for 5W20 oil I might have stuck with it.
 
What about slight tolerance changes to an engine that previously spec'd 5w30 but now specs 0w20? For example, the Toyota Tundra 5.7 V8. It used to spec 5w30, but now 0w20, and as some people have shown, the owners manual for that engine in other countries still shows 5w30.

Could tolerances have been modified in the engine for models that came after the spec changed to 0w20? I watched an interview with Mike Sweers, the engineer for the Tundra, a few years ago, and in it he states that they often make small changes to the 5.7 each year if needed. Made me think they changed the tolerances slightly, or something else in the engine to accommodate the 0w20 as the spec'd oil.

Is that possible?
 
What about slight tolerance changes to an engine that previously spec'd 5w30 but now specs 0w20? For example, the Toyota Tundra 5.7 V8. It used to spec 5w30, but now 0w20, and as some people have shown, the owners manual for that engine in other countries still shows 5w30.

Could tolerance have been modified in the engine for models that came after the spec changed to 0w20? I watched an interview with Mike Swears, the engineer for the Tundra, a few years ago, and in it he states that they often make small changes to the 5.7 each year if needed. Made me think they changed the tolerances slightly, or something else in the engine to accommodate the 0w20 as the spec'd oil.

Is that possible?
The best thing to do is check OE part numbers and shop manuals for changes. Things like bearings, and their clearances are a good place to start your search.
 

"Due to their greatly reduced volatility and good low-temperature performance, new base oils of API Group II-IV allow the formulation of lighter automotive viscosity grade oils,such as SAE 5W-40, 0W-30 and even 0W-20, to achieve better fuel economy. However, as explained in Figure 4, the use of thinner base oils increases the risk of engine wear unless appropriate friction modifiers are simultaneously deployed in the formulations. By shifting the Stribeck curve to the left in Figure 2, friction modifiers cause an equivalent shift of the wear and the frictional losses curves in Figure 4. The result is that the “optimal viscosity” point corresponding to the greatest fuel economy also is shifted to the left, towards lower viscosities. In practice, however, it is wise to prefer a somewhat heavier oil to a somewhat lighter one to further minimize wear."

View attachment 47898
Thanks for the graph. It proves to me the long standing recommendation of HTHS over 2.6, piston ring wear, versus 3.2, is in the noise. xw-20 oils minimum HTHS is 2.6 and most are above this figure.
 
What about slight tolerance changes to an engine that previously spec'd 5w30 but now specs 0w20? For example, the Toyota Tundra 5.7 V8. It used to spec 5w30, but now 0w20, and as some people have shown, the owners manual for that engine in other countries still shows 5w30.

Could tolerances have been modified in the engine for models that came after the spec changed to 0w20? I watched an interview with Mike Sweers, the engineer for the Tundra, a few years ago, and in it he states that they often make small changes to the 5.7 each year if needed. Made me think they changed the tolerances slightly, or something else in the engine to accommodate the 0w20 as the spec'd oil.

Is that possible?
It's all about main bearing design and engine testing. If the design criteria falls into spec, the engine builder will run engine tests to confirm there is no harm and will make the recommendation of the thinner oil. All three of my vehicles (Ranger, 4Runner and F150) were back spec'd to 5w-20 without making changes in bearing design and/or modification.
 
What about slight tolerance changes to an engine that previously spec'd 5w30 but now specs 0w20? For example, the Toyota Tundra 5.7 V8. It used to spec 5w30, but now 0w20, and as some people have shown, the owners manual for that engine in other countries still shows 5w30.

Could tolerances have been modified in the engine for models that came after the spec changed to 0w20? I watched an interview with Mike Sweers, the engineer for the Tundra, a few years ago, and in it he states that they often make small changes to the 5.7 each year if needed. Made me think they changed the tolerances slightly, or something else in the engine to accommodate the 0w20 as the spec'd oil.

Is that possible?
I seriously doubt the tolerances have changed.
 
I AM gonna "go there". We can't have an individual storming in and dissing contributors to this thread without having the qualifications and/or technical background to do so. Maybe this individual is qualified to chew us out. I don't know.

If this gets me barred from this forum, so be it!
PM me if you want to chat offline.

Swearing, Political talk, Unqualified Medical advice and viscous, ad hominem attacks may get you a time out, for sure.

But I am not a moderator, nor am I an oil Formulator or "expert" :)

Most experts are over on the NORIA board this is mainly an "enthusiasts forum, IMHO.

I am here just learning about oil and filters and other stuff - and enjoying the community here;
I've been here for a long time. Came here when I started having "weird" things going on with oil and filters
a couple decades ago.

But, continue to make you argument Sir, don't give up at my counter argument. This is a live discussion.

I do apologize for strafing and then heading right back to base.

- Ken
 
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