End of life of electronic devices

[andrew_j]

I looked and I found exactly one thermostat that can be controlled remotely and doesn't need a cloud service to work. It costs $500. It has a built-in webserver, like every $25 router out there.

Why nobody makes a thermostat with a built-in webserver that costs less than $500 is beyond me.

in short without a cloud service involved it is challenging to open specific ports on everyone’s home router(thru tech support) to allow internet traffic in if you want remote access to a thermostat.

If you did not open an internet port there is a cloud service as intermediary to ensure the data from your thermostat can flow. Potentially part of $500 prepays for the cloud service costs you might not be aware of?

 

[brianl703]

Potentially part of $500 prepays for the cloud service costs you might not be aware of?

No, the thermostat is specifically designed to operate without a cloud service. It's also a commercial thermostat (though it can be used to control residential equipment), seems businesses may have some security concerns about cloud-connected thermostats and this meets their requirements.

 

[brianl703]

Besides that, some thermostats (even "dumb" ones) have non-user-replaceable batteries inside of them that can go dead.

I've never seen that before. What's the point? They aren't like smoke detectors where code requirements in some states require a 10-year non replaceable battery.

 

[captainbeandip]

I've never seen that before. What's the point? They aren't like smoke detectors where code requirements in some states require a 10-year non replaceable battery.

Ha! What do you think the point is?

The old Honeywell round thermostat could keep working just fine for about 80 years or so. The new and "improved" version might last for about 10 years.

Which one do you think the company can make more money off of.

 

[brianl703]

Ha! What do you think the point is?

The old Honeywell round thermostat could keep working just fine for about 80 years or so. The new and "improved" version might last for about 10 years.

Which one do you think the company can make more money off of.

I've not found a "dumb" thermostat yet with non-replaceable batteries.

I had a Honeywell Chronotherm III at my old house, it was probably 25 years old when I sold the place, still working just fine.

 

[y_p_w]

I've not found a "dumb" thermostat yet with non-replaceable batteries.

I had a Honeywell Chronotherm III at my old house, it was probably 25 years old when I sold the place, still working just fine.

I replaced ann old Honeywell mercury switch thermometer with a new one for $20. I really don’t use it much anyways. It doesn’t require any power other than provided by the furnace. It’s basically just a switch making a connection.

 

[captainbeandip]

I'm pretty sure the new round Honeywells have the battery inside like I was talking about. They look just like the old kind, but now they're run by a little computer instead of a glob of mercury.

 

[brianl703]

I'm pretty sure the new round Honeywells have the battery inside like I was talking about. They look just like the old kind, but now they're run by a little computer instead of a glob of mercury.

They're powered by the furnace:

Honeywell makes their round thermostats in two varieties. The mechanical one of course has no batteries. The digital ones are powered by the furnace and do not require batteries either. All settings are held in permanent memory.

Furnace powering is, from what I've seen, very common in digital/electronic thermostats that aren't programmable and have no clock that needs to be maintained in a power outage. They are designed to "steal" power from the existing wiring and do not need a "C" wire connection.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

iPhone XR still going strong and so is my chrome book though chrome book being newer than the XR. XR come out around 2018 and my chrome book I got march 2020.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

If c wire is present thermostat will get its power from transformer otherwise battery is to retain clock and schedule during power outage. If no c wire then battery will power t stat switching.

Some t stats may have solid state memory or non removable battery for memory

 

[y_p_w]

They're powered by the furnace:



Furnace powering is, from what I've seen, very common in digital/electronic thermostats that aren't programmable and have no clock that needs to be maintained in a power outage. They are designed to "steal" power from the existing wiring and do not need a "C" wire connection.

The latest ones seem to use a CR2450 battery. I believe traditional heaters and A/C have no means to provide power to the thermostat. Thermostats were all completely mechanical devices designed to complete circuits where there was bimetal coil that indicated the temperature with a dial but also moved the contact point. I know older thermostats used mercury switches (I still have one that I haven't disposed yet) although I remember my dad got one in the 80s that used a hard contact instead. As a kid I remember playing around with the mercury thermostat with the cover off, and I could see the liquid move along with a flash when the circuit was completed. I think it was perfectly safe as long as the capsule was intact.



I still have a really basic one because I don't have A/C. I'm sure that it doesn't have anything more than a bimetal coil and a contact to complete the circuit. Mine doesn't even have a thermometer feature. Maybe an earlier version since mine only says Honeywell.

 

[brianl703]

The latest ones seem to use a CR2450 battery. I believe traditional heaters and A/C have no means to provide power to the thermostat.

As long as they're using 24V (not a heater using a millivolt control), there's sufficient power between the R and W/Y/G terminals to power a thermostat. This is how some of the smart thermostats get their power when there is no "C" wire. Should work even better with a "dumb" thermostat with lower power requirements.

The one that uses a CR2450 battery may be designed to work with millivolt control. This is exactly what it sounds like--a very small current generated by a thermocouple is used to open a gas valve on a call for heat.

 

[y_p_w]

As long as they're using 24V (not a heater using a millivolt control), there's sufficient power between the R and W/Y/G terminals to power a thermostat. This is how some of the smart thermostats get their power when there is no "C" wire. Should work even better with a "dumb" thermostat with lower power requirements.

The one that uses a CR2450 battery may be designed to work with millivolt control. This is exactly what it sounds like--a very small current generated by a thermocouple is used to open a gas valve on a call for heat.

I'm pretty sure that's what I have in my home. I decided to get the cheapest, simplest thermostat I could find. But I believe it's not sensitive to proper leveling like old mercury switches were.

Heck - I've got a new gas water heater a few years ago with a pilot. But with an electronic Honeywell control unit powered by a thermopile operating off of the pilot.

 

[brianl703]

I'm pretty sure that's what I have in my home. I decided to get the cheapest, simplest thermostat I could find. But I believe it's not sensitive to proper leveling like old mercury switches were.

Heck - I've got a new gas water heater a few years ago with a pilot. But with an electronic Honeywell control unit powered by a thermopile operating off of the pilot.

I've never actually seen a millivolt system, they are extremely rare (if not extinct) around here.

I have seen the newer gas water heaters with the electronic control powered from the thermopile. Hold the button, light the pilot, keep holding it till the light blinks.

 

[y_p_w]

I've never actually seen a millivolt system, they are extremely rare (if not extinct) around here.

I have seen the newer gas water heaters with the electronic control powered from the thermopile. Hold the button, light the pilot, keep holding it till the light blinks.

My neighborhood was built in the late 40s. Also most of the outlets are two prong and only fuses.

 

[Cujet]

The DoD and NASA have been dealing with "diminishing sources" parts for years. Especially when they're using non-military spec parts or ones where it's pretty much impossible to keep a semiconductor fab making the same process for more than a decade.

Same in the aviation industry. Try getting the individual COTS (Commercial off the shelf) components that were commonly available 25 years ago. They don't exist in any form, new or functional NOS, new old stock. The Cold Cathode flourescent bulbs and the low resolution LCD screen of a 25 year old EFIS (primary flight display) simply can't be found.

But to the phone issue, I upgrade regularly, about every 2 years, as the technology has been rapidly changing.

In my mind, the first iPhone that was fully functional was the iPhone 6. The 12 I currently use is still acceptable, but does not have the Satellite emergency text feature that is smart for pilots to have.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

I've never actually seen a millivolt system, they are extremely rare (if not extinct) around here.

I have seen the newer gas water heaters with the electronic control powered from the thermopile. Hold the button, light the pilot, keep holding it till the light blinks.

Garage space heaters use a millivolt system similar to gas water heaters

 

[y_p_w]

Same in the aviation industry. Try getting the individual COTS (Commercial off the shelf) components that were commonly available 25 years ago. They don't exist in any form, new or functional NOS, new old stock. The Cold Cathode flourescent bulbs and the low resolution LCD screen of a 25 year old EFIS (primary flight display) simply can't be found.

But to the phone issue, I upgrade regularly, about every 2 years, as the technology has been rapidly changing.

In my mind, the first iPhone that was fully functional was the iPhone 6. The 12 I currently use is still acceptable, but does not have the Satellite emergency text feature that is smart for pilots to have.

I remember one of my first job offers was essentially in the aviation industry, although I didn't take the job. It was in a place where there was snow on the ground in March. But the available parts wouldn't be made these days. And the control circuitry I would have been working on is in a form that is no longer used today.

I know in the aviation industry, there are far fewer uses of ASICs given the limited number of parts needed. It's more expensive, lower performance field-programmable gate arrays (FPGA) that can be programmed. The manufacturers make millions of them where the customer can program them for specific functionality. But a company like Boeing can justify their use since they only have to buy a few thousand at a time rather than making a custom part.

https://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/tc15-33.pdf

Still - there are some advantages to FPGAs because it's possible to program a similar functionality in newer FPGA parts, although typically that would require new circuit boards be made, although that's not that bad. I heard that NASA was using FPGAs in place of for some parts that they couldn't obtain any more, even after their well known attempts to scrounge for old parts on eBay. However, storing old parts might actually be better as long as they have enough to replace malfunctioning parts.

 

[andrew_j]

No, the thermostat is specifically designed to operate without a cloud service. It's also a commercial thermostat (though it can be used to control residential equipment), seems businesses may have some security concerns about cloud-connected thermostats and this meets their requirements.

So how do you access the thermostat remotely? Do you open ports on your firewall/router to allow remote access in?

 

[Soft Cars]

Good God I was afraid to click on this thread. I thought it was going to be about assisted suicide electronic devices.