Electricity Storage - this is how you do it...

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There is a hydro plant near Fresno that pumps water between two lakes. It drains the upper lake during demand then uses the excess capacity durning low demand to pump the water back.
 
They have been doing something similar in Spain for quite some time (2006 ???) but in an solar power plant.

They use the excess solar energy to heat up water mixed with a hi concentration of salt that is stored in large thermo-isolated pressurized tanks, that they in turn use to spin steam turbines during the night or very cloudy days.
 
Originally Posted By: Andy636
They have been doing something similar in Spain for quite some time (2006 ???) but in an solar power plant.

They use the excess solar energy to heat up water mixed with a hi concentration of salt that is stored in large thermo-isolated pressurized tanks, that they in turn use to spin steam turbines during the night or very cloudy days.


That's about as similar to a trad. pumped storage scheme as my work computer is to an abacus. (OK, It's running XP, but even so.)

They do tours round the Ben Cruachan one in Scotland, which must have been operating for a while, since we did it in Geography at school. (1965 by the website).

http://www.visitcruachan.co.uk/pages/the_hollow_mountain.asp

Very Bond Villian/Heroes of Telemark. I was expecting the explosions to start when we left.
 
Bureau of Reclamation Frying Pan-Arkansas Project pumped storage hydro unit below Mount Elbert, about twenty miles south of Leadville, Colorado.Beautiful country.Lots of 14ers to be seen from here to Alamosa.
 
We've got pumped storage here too, was offered turbine engineer job at on of the biggies (1,500MW)...was impressed that this is treated as an integrated solution, basically one station with some unique abilities.

Pumped storage in Australia is run with competing companies. The pumpers only pump when the wholeseale price is low (*) so there's not really the types of efficiencies that the CLP scheme offers.

(*) funny story about that.

The Oz market has the generators bid their power into the market (retail prices are around 27c/KWh, wholesale is typically 4-5c, but can range from -$1 to $13/KWh...yes a retailer can be buying it at $13 and selling at 27c...they hate that).

When the market was established in the mid '90s, and all the generators broken up and either sold, or made into legally independent Gen Co's competing against each other.

The market is that you bid your capacity and price...lowest price is scheduled in first, and brought up to maximum capacity. Then the next cheapest is brought in and such...BUT...everyone gets paid the same as the most expensive bid in the market at the present time.

So if a power station has a particular min gen, the load up to that will be bid at $0 (or even negative) to avoid being pushed out of the market.

Late '90s, the traders for all the gencos through that by bidding zero, being pulled to max capacity, then getting paid what the next competitor was getting for a handful on MW they would maximise their revenue.

Until one day one too many of them had the same idea, and the price of power, the most expensive power scheduled in was $0...and the pumpers "bought" all this free electricity and pumped all that they could all day.
 
This post and some other reading got me to thinking about the roll of electricity generating industries. Historically, it has been one of power generation (actually conversion to electricity). Could that roll be changing? There's the advent of solar and it's impact on the electricity generating industry (Shannow had an earlier post on this). With the changing landscape of electricity generation, could the electricity generating industries roll evolve to power generation, power management and short-term power storage?
 
Rick,

there's more to the show than certain interest groups would have the average punter believe.

In an AC system, every generator and synchronous motor is sitting in lock step with each other, and their mechanical inertia adds to the ability of the grid in total to to manage "stuff"...in theory, turning on your lights when you get home from work causes something somewhere to respond...load increases to the grid drop the frequency a little (power is torque*RPM, so dropping frequency immediately levels out the power...it's the signal back to the generator that it needs to load up)

Thermals, nukes, GTS, Hydros will respond to that via their governor response. Same as your mower, when the speed drops, the governor will open the throttle valves (thermal, Nuke, Hydro), and the electronic control systems will start to feed in more fuel.

conversely, when the load drops, e.g. by a smelter tripping, or a transmission line outage, the frequency immediately rises (same power spread over less load), and the governors will drop the power output to get it back to normal...again, the thermals, nukes, hydros and GTs will do that automatically, then their control systems will start backing off the fuel.

The grid will be connected to these machines and ask their control systems to ramp up or down as needed for their pricing, and position in the pricing (bid) structure.

The Solar/wind don't do any of this regulation...they harvest energy and pump it into the grid at whatever the source is providing at the time. They don't ramp up when the grid gets loaded, and they don't ramp down when load drops off.

As they become a bigger part of the system, they make the regulation of power flows fall onto a fewer number of machines capable of doing that control...

Other things are power factor correction, which the big machines can do by changing the excitation of the generator, or changing the local voltage (changing transformer tappings).

Again, the wind/solar don't provide that.

It can be done, Static VAR Compensators (VAR being Volts Amps Reactive, the square root of -1 part) involve capacitor banks that are switched in and out as needed.

There's been thermals converted into "synchronous condensers" where the turbine is cut off the generator, and the generator spins, controlling local volatage, frequency, and power factor.

Immediate frequency response can be done with batteries, but has to be backed by something that can hold the load up.

Problem is that the solar wind get to generate first, are bid at zero, and get whatever the thermals are getting for their load, but don't have to provide the system stability.

System stability is undervalued while all the old tech stuff can still provide it. But the systems are becoming less stable.

As the push for renewables continues, the stability part will (IMO) become the money maker rather than straight energy conversion...and people won't be happy paying more for the "imaginary" part of power delivery.
 
Originally Posted By: Rick in PA
This post and some other reading got me to thinking about the roll of electricity generating industries. Historically, it has been one of power generation (actually conversion to electricity). Could that roll be changing? There's the advent of solar and it's impact on the electricity generating industry (Shannow had an earlier post on this). With the changing landscape of electricity generation, could the electricity generating industries roll evolve to power generation, power management and short-term power storage?

AFAIK, storage is going to be the next MAJOR step in improving the efficiency and reliability of power grids regardless of generation method. When you have sufficient storage, generators don't have to have as much excess capacity, they can run in their most efficient range more of the time, the grid becomes vastly more tolerant of demand peaks, and generator failures won't cascade as much.

Management fits into the above as well, and also helps power companies become part of sustainability efforts rather than opposed to them.
 
Makes perfect sense when coupled with a nuke, since they are the most efficient running wide-open. Sure as heck beats dumping steam like we are doing at Bruce, eh Shannow?
smirk.gif
 
OVERKILL,
here's an article on that practice and what/why they do it.

http://nuclear-economics.com/12-nuclear-flexibility/

I get it...and in a nuke with lake cooling, it's probably "reasonable"...I had to fend off a manager some years ago who wanted to do that with coal...our bypass was designed to get the units in and out quickly, not shed load and burn coal for no revenue.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OVERKILL,
here's an article on that practice and what/why they do it.

http://nuclear-economics.com/12-nuclear-flexibility/

I get it...and in a nuke with lake cooling, it's probably "reasonable"...I had to fend off a manager some years ago who wanted to do that with coal...our bypass was designed to get the units in and out quickly, not shed load and burn coal for no revenue.


Yes, I believe that was the link I shared the last time we discussed this with TV
wink.gif
 
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