"Electric Cars Are Cleaner, Even When The Power Comes From Coal" -Forbes Mag

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It's always the same S on here from all the experts but every single one of them completely fail to believe that there is no infrastructure in place for the electric car. Take a look in the land of the fruits and nuts. SoCal Ed has already told Tesla that they are only allowing 1 super charger per distribution sub station. Now add 2 70 amp chargers in every House on the block that will all be plugged in at 5:30 pm. It ain't going to happen!
 
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Easy, build more "Safe" Nuclear power plants. Then we can deplete many forms of minerals/elements for millions and millions of LARGE car batteries.
 
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Originally Posted by P10crew
[Linked Image]
Spot on. Most simply forget what the "tank" in an electric car is a very complex system that needs very specific and finite resources to produce. Then you have a big problem with disposing the batteries. It's not exactly a clean and energy efficient process either and a lot of that battery simply ends up in the trash. Or are we going to do what the shipping industry does, let the third world countries dump them in their environments, so we can pretend we are saving the planet?
 
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Originally Posted by P10crew
It's always the same S on here from all the experts but every single one of them completely fail to believe that there is no infrastructure in place for the electric car. Take a look in the land of the fruits and nuts. SoCal Ed has already told Tesla that they are only allowing 1 super charger per distribution sub station. Now add 2 70 amp chargers in every House on the block that will all be plugged in at 5:30 pm. It ain't going to happen!
You're forgetting a few things. #1 More employers will offer charging at work. #2 Almost every new home being built will have a solar array as required by California Building Code. #3 Not everyone in California gets home at 530. #4 Peak power demand occurs between 6-10pm. "Smart Chargers" delay or reduce that charging rate until demand subsides. #5 Battery Storage
 
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Something must change as countries like China, India and others have yet to really have the large number of cars and luxury living styles we have that require power.
 
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Super charger stations damage the battery after only 25 charges. Well that's a big old oopsie for the EV industry to surmount... "Engineers from the University of California, Riverside (UCR) say that commercial fast-charging stations subject EV car batteries to high temperatures and resistance which can cause cells to crack, leak, and lose storage capacity." https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/0...ctric-vehicle-batteries-tesla-panasonic/ https://www.science20.com/news_staf...ies_after_just_25_charging_cycles-246206 How come no main stream news sources are carrying the story in the above two links? Electric cars schmlectric cars ... I'll take $1.47 gas for now !!! (that doesn't damage my gas tank after 25 fill-ups)
 
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The title is totally BS as this line right from the article summarizes that coal-fired power generation is bad. (no matter what you use the electricity for. Nuff said) "The only exceptions are countries such as Poland, where the electricity network is still mostly based on coal-fired power generation."
 
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There is no University of Nijmegen. In any case, the main author is a fellow at Cambridge and has been a PhD candidate at Radbaud University Nijmegen. Kind of sad that the study is behind a paywall.
 
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Call BS if you wish, but Forbes is hardly a liberal publication. It is considered one of the more factual sources if information. 1 - You don't need to charge every day and certainly not at the same time. 2 - You can charge late at night; off peak. 3 - Many can charge at work at reduced rates. 4 - Solar panels rock; I pay less than $15 per month to be on the grid. Finally, EVs are only part of the solution. Everyone accepting the norm is selling out future generations. Climate change is real. Listen to the science.
 

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by P10crew
It's always the same S on here from all the experts but every single one of them completely fail to believe that there is no infrastructure in place for the electric car. Take a look in the land of the fruits and nuts. SoCal Ed has already told Tesla that they are only allowing 1 super charger per distribution sub station. Now add 2 70 amp chargers in every House on the block that will all be plugged in at 5:30 pm. It ain't going to happen!
You're forgetting a few things. #1 More employers will offer charging at work. #2 Almost every new home being built will have a solar array as required by California Building Code. #3 Not everyone in California gets home at 530. #4 Peak power demand occurs between 6-10pm. "Smart Chargers" delay or reduce that charging rate until demand subsides. #5 Battery Storage
Battery storage is primarily designed to, and used to, load shift for residential users. Commercial, it is primarily used for FCAS, which is of absolutely no help if people are trying to charge their cars when they get home. Delaying the charge time only makes sense when traditional night time power is cheap. If the load curve shifts, rates are going to follow it, otherwise, the generators that provide when it isn't windy or sunny will go bankrupt. Employers aren't going to offer charging at work if it ends up costing them a lot of money, similar to how they don't offer employees free gas. I expect once a road tax is rolled into the kWh's used to charge EV's, we'll see an impact on this. Every new home with a solar array is just going to exasperate the effects of the duck curve, driving thermals offline during they day and requiring them to grossly increase their night rate to stay viable. When it isn't sunny or windy, emissions skyrocket as gas fired generation is ramped up to cover the load. Right now, it is both windy, and sunny in California. But it isn't windy or sunny in South Australia, so its power is filthy. Germany, before the sun came up, was very dirty as well, because it isn't windy there either. Even right now, it is close to 200g/kWh. [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] The only grids on the planet which have consistently low emissions power use hydro and nuclear at high levels of penetration.
 
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@Overkill, nice charts. A question, for California, the puke colored band in the graph is the electricity imported from other states?
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by P10crew
It's always the same S on here from all the experts but every single one of them completely fail to believe that there is no infrastructure in place for the electric car. Take a look in the land of the fruits and nuts. SoCal Ed has already told Tesla that they are only allowing 1 super charger per distribution sub station. Now add 2 70 amp chargers in every House on the block that will all be plugged in at 5:30 pm. It ain't going to happen!
You're forgetting a few things. #1 More employers will offer charging at work. #2 Almost every new home being built will have a solar array as required by California Building Code. #3 Not everyone in California gets home at 530. #4 Peak power demand occurs between 6-10pm. "Smart Chargers" delay or reduce that charging rate until demand subsides. #5 Battery Storage
Battery storage is primarily designed to, and used to, load shift for residential users. Commercial, it is primarily used for FCAS, which is of absolutely no help if people are trying to charge their cars when they get home. Delaying the charge time only makes sense when traditional night time power is cheap. If the load curve shifts, rates are going to follow it, otherwise, the generators that provide when it isn't windy or sunny will go bankrupt. Employers aren't going to offer charging at work if it ends up costing them a lot of money, similar to how they don't offer employees free gas. I expect once a road tax is rolled into the kWh's used to charge EV's, we'll see an impact on this. Every new home with a solar array is just going to exasperate the effects of the duck curve, driving thermals offline during they day and requiring them to grossly increase their night rate to stay viable. When it isn't sunny or windy, emissions skyrocket as gas fired generation is ramped up to cover the load. Right now, it is both windy, and sunny in California. But it isn't windy or sunny in South Australia, so its power is filthy. Germany, before the sun came up, was very dirty as well, because it isn't windy there either. Even right now, it is close to 200g/kWh. [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] The only grids on the planet which have consistently low emissions power use hydro and nuclear at high levels of penetration.
Okay. fine, you still must compare the additional emissions from the additional load required for anticipated demand to charge BEV's vs the emissions generated by the vehicle if it were an ICE instead.
 
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Originally Posted by P10crew
Jeff Jeff Jeff you have all the answers.
Ha! That's a good one. EVs are not for everyone; I have said that many times. Teslas, especially, are not. No one needs a Tesla. Same for Porsche, Vettes, Beemers, etc. The EV as a mass used car is in its infancy. Things will get change and better. Personally, I cannot understand naysayers; in my opinion we need to do better for future generations. I am a scientist at heart; perhaps that's my problem. All the best to you P10crew.
 

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Okay. fine, you still must compare the additional emissions from the additional load required for anticipated demand to charge BEV's vs the emissions generated by the vehicle if it were an ICE instead.
I agree, I was pointing out that if you have a grid that's able to provide green generation around the clock, the emissions footprint for the BEV is going to be significantly lower, and this will become more and more important as BEV market penetration expands. A BEV operated in Ontario, Quebec or BC is going to have enviably low operating emissions; emissions far lower than places often heralded for their investments in wind and solar like Germany, California, South Australia...etc.
 

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Originally Posted by Alfred_B
@Overkill, nice charts. A question, for California, the puke colored band in the graph is the electricity imported from other states?
That's correct.
 
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Originally Posted by P10crew
It's always the same S on here from all the experts but every single one of them completely fail to believe that there is no infrastructure in place for the electric car. Take a look in the land of the fruits and nuts. SoCal Ed has already told Tesla that they are only allowing 1 super charger per distribution sub station. It ain't going to happen!
In my area they are actually demolishing "excess" generation capacity due to stagnating demand. I've owned an antique EV many years before anyone else, it like my Volt just plugged into a standard 10 amp 110vac outlet to charge overnight. Most people who own a plug in will NEVER supercharge during their entire ownership , people who do it often own the wrong car and make up a small percentage of plug in owners Our grid is only running 60-80 percent utilized averaged over a day. This means we just [censored] away a 1/3 of our power potential especially after midnight. Meaning the majority of plug in owners who charge overnight are just load leveling the grid making it more efficient. Also if even half of people owned a BEV (Never gonna happen in your lifetime) power plant operators would be delighted as they could just build more capacity and make more money. There really are more opportunities for the power grid with EVs than without. Your argument is moot and goes contrary to what the utilities believe to be accurate. Further EV adoption is very slow, most utilities won't notice anything outside normal deviation for a decade or more
 
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Fact is that the manufacturing of electric cars is much dirtier than ICE overall, and the rare metals which are in short supply and very toxic to boot. With current technology if the mfrs were going to sell in large volume they would run out of lithium and cobalt in a blink of an eye. Truth is that EV won't be a significant presence in the market especially in the USA for 50-100 years in the future. When it comes to charging the US electric grid is in very poor shape and if you had large numbers of vehicles being charged at the same time it could bring the grid down in certain places.
 
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