Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes!

[ecotourist]

Looks like the movement to self driving trucks is starting, pretty much as predicted - starting on on major routes, by large companies, for extended hours. In Canada this partially addresses the chronic problem of a shortage of drivers as well. I recently read somewhere that 'truck driver' was the largest single employement group in Canada. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/self-driving-trucks-canada-1.4464693

 

[emg]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It took decades of subsidy to oil and auto industry to get to where we are today

Exactly which 'decades of subsidy' was that? Who was subsidizing Standard Oil? Who was subsidising the Model T?

Quote:

and it will take equally long to convert a significant % of transportation to electrical.

Our ancestors were driving electric cars a hundred and fifty years ago. They didn't need subsidies to convert to gasoline cars, because they were clearly and obviously better than electrics, for all the same reasons that people keep buying gasoline cars today despite governments trying to force them to buy electric cars that they don't want. Electric cars will only become the majority of transport in twenty to thirty years when we no longer need to transport our bodies around. And solely because they won't require a huge support infrastructure like gasoline does.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

Originally Posted By: PimTac

Elon Musk is using a current day version of the Shell game to run his finances. Borrowing money using another one of his company’s collateral to purchase stock of another of his companies is fraud. Deception of shareholders by announcing pie in the sky goals and as the stocks rise, he sells. He may have a genius mind but he has ulterior motives as well. What is the EPS of TSLA? What? There isn’t one?

Eventually his house of cards will come crashing down and all the greenies will see his fraud.

No. They'll make a movie about how Shannow and other Luddites on BITOG formed a conspiracy to ruin him.

 

[Garak]

Yes, a conspiracy from Australia's coal industry.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: emg

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It took decades of subsidy to oil and auto industry to get to where we are today

Exactly which 'decades of subsidy' was that? Who was subsidizing Standard Oil? Who was subsidising the Model T?

Quote:

and it will take equally long to convert a significant % of transportation to electrical.

Our ancestors were driving electric cars a hundred and fifty years ago. They didn't need subsidies to convert to gasoline cars, because they were clearly and obviously better than electrics, for all the same reasons that people keep buying gasoline cars today despite governments trying to force them to buy electric cars that they don't want. Electric cars will only become the majority of transport in twenty to thirty years when we no longer need to transport our bodies around. And solely because they won't require a huge support infrastructure like gasoline does.

Look hard for this info did you? Or can you really not use google? Oil industry subsidies started in 1916 with intangible drilling costs then in 29 with the depletion allowance and it goes on and on - Electric cars are only viable with great battery tech - not available to our ancestors (who were working on growing limbs ) A look at my my sig line shows Im not exactly "green" , that said big oil is one of the most costly industries on the planet - much of that burden carried by the US alone. Canadians don't pay squat for the defense of oil. Electrics are not perfect, but are ready for a large number of commuters, longer distance driving, and infrastructure will catch up in time. What to invest in and when ? Currently the 5th fleet oil babysitting gives zero ROI to the American people, and enriches the gulf nations. In the short term if we arent going to invest in our own infrastructure and send our money to arab nations to build cities in etc ocean and 200 stories hotels - perhaps we should share the bill? When do we start? No one here offers any even partial solution but the status quo - take pollution out of it for now - you guys simply ignore that it costs us trillions per year. Imagine what we could do with just half that money spent right here per year? I bought a Honda a month ago - no one forced me to buy anything - who knows what silliness other governments force on their population but being forced to buy electric is a non concern. UD

 

[4WD]

Are you saying we would not be all over that region regardless? Every spectrum has stayed with it … We spend a huge chunk of the military in three places: Germany, Japan, S.Korea (no, did not need Google for that) … So you being the expert why … oil tankers? The US military is a huge reason for some facsimile of stability ~ economic, socioeconomic, and otherwise ~ sure we’d like to see more cost share but can’t discuss much of that on this sight … Since this university study … two pipelines have opened to avoid the HS … Saudi Arabia needs to be pushed to go forward with the canal proposal … you will never get anything sorted with Iran … I actually have no issue with “help” for renewalbles … but energy companies pay huge taxes and are allowed write off’s like other companies … at least they can’t run 3 ledger accounting, and price fix like insurance companies

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Originally Posted By: emg

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It took decades of subsidy to oil and auto industry to get to where we are today

Exactly which 'decades of subsidy' was that? Who was subsidizing Standard Oil? Who was subsidising the Model T?

Quote:

and it will take equally long to convert a significant % of transportation to electrical.

Our ancestors were driving electric cars a hundred and fifty years ago. They didn't need subsidies to convert to gasoline cars, because they were clearly and obviously better than electrics, for all the same reasons that people keep buying gasoline cars today despite governments trying to force them to buy electric cars that they don't want. Electric cars will only become the majority of transport in twenty to thirty years when we no longer need to transport our bodies around. And solely because they won't require a huge support infrastructure like gasoline does.

Look hard for this info did you? Or can you really not use google? Oil industry subsidies started in 1916 with intangible drilling costs then in 29 with the depletion allowance and it goes on and on -

Now stop right there. Same thing all the time. Electric car advocates calling tax credits "subsidies". Sloppy use of language only works on the ignorant. A subsidy is when the government gives money to businesses that can't survive in the real world. A tax credit is when the government takes less money from businesses that can survive in the real world.

 

[DoubleWasp]

The fleet pulls out of the Middle East when the devil suits up in his ice skates and snow pants. That whole region is such a hot bed, I don't see it happening any more than I see us pulling out of Korea. I'm not a believer that it's just to protect oil. We have quite a few nemesis there that need to be looked after. But say we do drop the. Middle East on its head. Where does it go? Latin America and China, to look after our lithium overlords instead of our petroleum overlords. Speaking of the horse and carriage, did getting off of hay, oats, and manure shovelers get us anything? Nope. Just a new master.

 

[UncleDave]

Wed likely still have a presence but we could certainly reduce spend over time. You know the old "ramp up ramp down" way of doing things - anything with global scale happens over time. Expert to expert lets engage in dialog vs personal attacks. The boat guys make you guys here look tame I have no problem going tit for that way till the cows come home but it seems unproductive to me. Why oil tankers ? because insuring the free flow of oil is critical to the US and global economy, enough so that we dedicate the entire 5th fleet in its entirety to the endeavor. The other reason is to insure the ongoing viability of the petrodollar system that brings untold profits at mind boggling expense. Agreed on Saudi Arabia Vs Iran - thing is the Saudi are friendlier - but hardly a great group of people to be supporting wouldn't you say? We do spend huge chunks all over -when adding up how much of that spend is to protect the free flow of oil its a significant chunk and I believe that would be better spent at home on our own people and infrastructure. Renewables get a thimble of the money big oil gets, As a guy that has a job in the manufacturing industry and owns a boat company Im not at all anti big company or anti write down / tax break. They should get breaks - but we shouldn't lose site of what we are spending and where and who pays what. What I am against is entire industries making record profits without paying their share and hiding the true cost of an industry - in terms of dollars - and more importantly lives using subterfuge and great PR. UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

The fleet pulls out of the Middle East when the devil suits up in his ice skates and snow pants. That whole region is such a hot bed, I don't see it happening any more than I see us pulling out of Korea. I'm not a believer that it's just to protect oil. We have quite a few nemesis there that need to be looked after. But say we do drop the. Middle East on its head. Where does it go? Latin America and China, to look after our lithium overlords instead of our petroleum overlords. Speaking of the horse and carriage, did getting off of hay, oats, and manure shovelers get us anything? Nope. Just a new master.

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

The fleet pulls out of the Middle East when the devil suits up in his ice skates and snow pants. That whole region is such a hot bed, I don't see it happening any more than I see us pulling out of Korea. I'm not a believer that it's just to protect oil. We have quite a few nemesis there that need to be looked after. But say we do drop the. Middle East on its head. Where does it go? Latin America and China, to look after our lithium overlords instead of our petroleum overlords. Speaking of the horse and carriage, did getting off of hay, oats, and manure shovelers get us anything? Nope. Just a new master.

If it weren't for oil no one would care about the entire region. Ever hear the roddenberry star trek joke about the enterprises ethnic makeup? The fleet was out - for almost 50 years- then returned to the gulf in 95. Its to protect the oil - AND the petrodollar mainly. "stralias" pretty good at lithium production making about what # 2& 3 do and way more than 4th place - China but yes mining and production is always nasty work and often needs protection. Id rather spend money protecting australia and LATAM than barbaric islamic nations . I agree that electrics are nascent, and that oil isnt going away - but investing sensibly to move away and a workable pace seems a way better choice for our country. UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Originally Posted By: emg

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It took decades of subsidy to oil and auto industry to get to where we are today

Exactly which 'decades of subsidy' was that? Who was subsidizing Standard Oil? Who was subsidising the Model T?

Quote:

and it will take equally long to convert a significant % of transportation to electrical.

Our ancestors were driving electric cars a hundred and fifty years ago. They didn't need subsidies to convert to gasoline cars, because they were clearly and obviously better than electrics, for all the same reasons that people keep buying gasoline cars today despite governments trying to force them to buy electric cars that they don't want. Electric cars will only become the majority of transport in twenty to thirty years when we no longer need to transport our bodies around. And solely because they won't require a huge support infrastructure like gasoline does.

Look hard for this info did you? Or can you really not use google? Oil industry subsidies started in 1916 with intangible drilling costs then in 29 with the depletion allowance and it goes on and on -

Now stop right there. Same thing all the time. Electric car advocates calling tax credits "subsidies". Sloppy use of language only works on the ignorant. A subsidy is when the government gives money to businesses that can't survive in the real world. A tax credit is when the government takes less money from businesses that can survive in the real world.

Stop. (we can all read the wordsmithing in the ad campaigns ) Subsidy, tax break, loophole, assistance , allowance, or any other names you can assign to a "break" - all result in the net net same the thing. Industry specific break/allowances like a "depletion allowance" might as well be a subsidy at the end of the year. A break for the beneficiary. Add up the entire bucket of assistance to the industry - to not look at the big picture- all in- is ignorant. What name would you use for the entire capacity of the 5th fleet? UD

 

[DoubleWasp]

I'm no fan of that region at all. But here's the thing. As green grows, were seeing more and more comic book characters coming out of the woodwork. So, the question is, are we really shifting things to a better place? Australia is fine, but China and Latin America? We don't have a great history with LA at all, and that place is a real hot bed waiting to burst into flames. Our government has done some REALLY despicable things down there that may come back to haunt us more than they have. Where production is concerned, we are talking about right now. What happens if the demand increases by a hundred or thousand fold?

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

I'm no fan of that region at all. But here's the thing. As green grows, were seeing more and more comic book characters coming out of the woodwork. So, the question is, are we really shifting things to a better place? Australia is fine, but China and Latin America? We don't have a great history with LA at all, and that place is a real hot bed waiting to burst into flames. Our government has done some REALLY despicable things down there that may come back to haunt us more than they have. Where production is concerned, we are talking about right now. What happens if the demand increases by a hundred or thousand fold?

Agreed on our relationship with LATAM. Not great. Cant say its worse though after all we invaded afghanistan and iraq - but not venezuela..... yet I think we have to balance demand over time - as we both agree there is no replacing oil. I think we have to balance this need over time with whatever options we have with similar levels of (subsidy, allowance, assistance, tax break) just to be specific about language lest I be ignorant about wording.

 

[4WD]

Another thing I’m missing in all this is why did approval fly through to export both oil and NG ? I’m a bit suspicious it’s for the same reason as Oz … when we had just talked about NG being the bridge to renewables … So much for energy independence

 

[4WD]

One more thing … you know the record profit thing is populist rhetoric and folks act like it’s nonstop … Schlumberger, Halliburton, and Baker fired enough people to start a number four competitor … and you know what industries have much higher ROCE … and and you also know big oil has to invest in 30 year projects … not a 30 minute bet on someone losing money. … I think you know all that

 

[4WD]

This all comes down to Iran … nobody else will keep a leash on them … And you know how green they are … biggest NG reserves out there … but need nuclear power … uh huh

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Canadians don't pay squat for the defense of oil.

That's Pandora's box right there, and a whole other kettle of fish. Canada has obscene amounts of oil in Alberta; we could be entirely self-sufficient, the fact that Quebec buggered up our plans to export oilsands crude to the east for processing and consumption a few months ago speaks volumes as to how deep this game goes. Not using Middle Eastern oil would require absolutely zero defence, by anybody. But that was killed, and so we import, on the east coast, oil defended, as you rightly put, by the US's interests in the area.

 

[SHOZ]

Most of my gasoline comes from the tar sands. BP has a huge refinery in Whiting IN that has two pipelines running to it from Canada.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Canadians don't pay squat for the defense of oil.

That's Pandora's box right there, and a whole other kettle of fish. Canada has obscene amounts of oil in Alberta; we could be entirely self-sufficient, the fact that Quebec buggered up our plans to export oilsands crude to the east for processing and consumption a few months ago speaks volumes as to how deep this game goes. Not using Middle Eastern oil would require absolutely zero defence, by anybody. But that was killed, and so we import, on the east coast, oil defended, as you rightly put, by the US's interests in the area.

yup quite the pile of snakes all in.... It would be interesting to break down 2 "needs" - the need for flow and volume Vs the "need" to assert the petrodollar standard - both parts wholly paid for globally by US muscle. If we can sell the tech and capacity to the world no reason we can't become the new Oil states industrially speaking If we can go 80/20 to 20/80 oil/ other in 100 years we can change the paradigm, buts its a long term game of which the opening moves are just being played. If you have to start somewhere it would be at the easiest spot technically from a transportation perspective - and grow from there. like a car that would have about 40-60 miles of range per charge = that covers a very large portion of metro commuters I think GM said that covered something l/ dayike 85% of kind of like what the volt/ delivers today that the bolt and teslsa3 improves upon. UD

 

[4WD]

One snake kills another … was not long ago there was big momentum for CNG … almost crickets now … The one thing folks should agree on is efficient use of power … I was due an HVAC replacement … went to see if there were real incentives to go with a VFD system at twice the cost but much better energy rating … Well if only I was doing wind, solar, or hydrogen it would be super … I bought a middle of the road system …