Red, does your engine builder eliminate the in block oil pressure bypass like I hear some builders do?
Ecore Experience
- Thread starter Red Bowtie
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I called and asked to have it checked out. They said it's blocked and that was typical for a big block Chev. They said the oil pump has a relief in it. Does that help explain anything?
The bypass in the block is there to protect the filter, an oil pump relief won't help if you're trying to pump more cold thick oil through a filter than it can handle. It doesn't control differential pressure across the element.
It's not conclusive, but could be the root of your problem. Doesn't sound like a very wise thing for an engine builder to do for a street engine that isn't going to be running a race only low restriction filter.
Don't be surprised if Champ tells you that your filter died because of too high a differential pressure.
It does for me. It explains why your filter failed. And why an Ecore should never be used on this engine again. No bypass valve and a high pressure spike blew the media through one of the cage openings.
It also explains why you really, REALLY, need to use a lighter oil: a 10w30 or 10w40 conventional, or a 5w40 synthetic.
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Yep. Sure does. It's the fear I've had for those who do this procedure. I've raised this concern with a few Chebbie engine builders. This is usually done with the bracket racers and, some, street racers. The trailer queens are usually using racing oil filters that are typically designed for about 2-3 times the flow of your conventional spin-on.
The basically defeated the only protection the media had from excessive pressure differential.
You're actually the first to suffer the effects that I felt could be all too common with this practice. The common skewl of thought on it is that they want to assure that all oil is filtered in the instance of a stray chunk of something passing through the system. The unfortunate possible side effect is that you rupture the media and go about blissfully circulating unfiltered oil until your next filter change.
You sorta added a new low end benchmark for my worst case scenario.
Now, I'll say that this wasn't the Ecore's fault ..but also grant that it probably would not have ended in catastophic failure with another filter.
Don't let this safety be bypassed again. It has little to be gained and, obviously, a whole bunch of potential liability from the practice.
The basically defeated the only protection the media had from excessive pressure differential.
You're actually the first to suffer the effects that I felt could be all too common with this practice. The common skewl of thought on it is that they want to assure that all oil is filtered in the instance of a stray chunk of something passing through the system. The unfortunate possible side effect is that you rupture the media and go about blissfully circulating unfiltered oil until your next filter change.
You sorta added a new low end benchmark for my worst case scenario.
Now, I'll say that this wasn't the Ecore's fault ..but also grant that it probably would not have ended in catastophic failure with another filter.
Don't let this safety be bypassed again. It has little to be gained and, obviously, a whole bunch of potential liability from the practice.
I concur with XS650.
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Wow
Looks like a medical examiners convention with a dead carcass sitting there. Lots of interest in this post.
I'll bid for a CSI forensic role ..but will settle for a Quincy type thing
I'll bid for a CSI forensic role ..but will settle for a Quincy type thing
Maybe true, but if the pressure burst was enough to actually crush the e-core cage as well, then pretty much any typical metal center tube design would have crushed as well. Although some of the media may not have escaped the outlet, the result of blocked oil flow would have been the same.
I'm thinking that an application like this is one of the few that calls for a racing filter. Or consider finding a filter made for a different app, but still fits, that actually has a built in bypass valve in the filter.
I've never said that I thought the cage was crushed, and if you'll note I didn't say it here. I believe the high pressure differential literally blew the media through one or more of the large openings in the cage where the media is completely unsupported. This would not (and could not) happen with a conventional metal center tube.
It's more a case that a high performance street engine application deserves a proper oiling system instead of a track only system intended for engines with short design lives.
Further up in the post was a report that the e-core cage had actually collapsed. If that's not true or I am misunderstanding, then I agree with your guess completely G-man.
(Although I'm not personally uncomfortable with the amount of unsupported media area in an e-core design for a normal street vehicle. Actually, that is my favorite part of the e-core design.)
(Although I'm not personally uncomfortable with the amount of unsupported media area in an e-core design for a normal street vehicle. Actually, that is my favorite part of the e-core design.)
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Actually most of them are still in the thicker is better camp. One customer of my buddy (he builds the engines) finally switched to a 5w-40 synth. It made his runs far more consistant.
I can see why you wouldn't want to use a oil filter without a by-pass for this application (now that we know the one in the block has been circumvented) but why are so many suggesting that a filter with a conventional metal center tube would have held an advantage in this situation? Is there a concern that bits of the media will get into the oil stream?
Assuming the nylon cage was not crushed (and I don't think it was) the only thing that failed here was the media. It failed at one or more of the points where the nylon cage does not support it. A conventional filter with a metal tube may have also failed if the tube failed, but that would be the only way. There is no place on a metal tube where the media itself can be pushed through into the center inlet area as it can with the Ecore nylon cage.
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opps
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Gary, after some further thought, what you observed does make sense, only I would describe it slightly differently.
Under cold start conditions, the pump may be in relief due to the viscosity of the oil and total restriction, of which, most of is presented by the filter and it's circuit. Once the oil reaches the engine, the oil heats up by viscous friction in the bearings, and thus provides less restriction proportionally to the filter and it's circuit.
It's now clearer than ever on why manufacturers are so concerned about cold start viscosities.
Under cold start conditions, the pump may be in relief due to the viscosity of the oil and total restriction, of which, most of is presented by the filter and it's circuit. Once the oil reaches the engine, the oil heats up by viscous friction in the bearings, and thus provides less restriction proportionally to the filter and it's circuit.
It's now clearer than ever on why manufacturers are so concerned about cold start viscosities.
I see no one has tackled the questions I posed:
When there is "excess" pressure and the center tube collapses, what do you think happens to the oil pumps output after the collapse? Do you think the engine starves of oil?
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If the nylon cage design tests out to withstand more differential pressure than a standard metal center tube ( with those wider gaps that the cage has) , what would have happened to a filter with a standard metal center tube in this instance under the pressure the filter "might/must" have seen?
Let me reiiterate because I think people are getting ahead of themselves especially those who think the media blew ( or blows) through the center tube.
Here's some more food for thought. What do you think happends to a fully synthetic media when a center tube collapses?
If one looks at the picture evidence of the E-core that was provided back on page one, the media is intact--is it not? Yes, it's not where it is supposed to be because of the collapsed center tube.
Not being privy to the service report--and I won't ask because they won't tell me, just like i wouldn't tell our salesmen when I was in charge of warranties as company policy was the customer got the info first---i'll harzard a guess the center tube did collapse.
But the media is intact.
So what say you for those who are "worried" about the media blowing through the cage for whatever reason you want to come up with?
We have yet to see picture evidence of a collapsed metal center tube on this forum ( they happen, we just haven't had one posted)--what do you think the media looks like with one of those?
It's similar to the E-core.
The media can rip from the endcaps. The media is crushed in some form. The metal center tube does not just collapse in on itself and the filter media stays intact and in the form you would see in a used filter.
Under some conditions of collapsed center tubes, again I only ever saw metal tubes in my day, bits of shredded media went through the metal core and into the block. So it is laughable to me that there are some who are worried about E-cores gaps in the nylon cage. Maybe the metal core acted like a shredder due to the small holes? Ever thought of that? Maybe the larger gaps will prevent the media from "shredding" and the media will stay intact. Maybe that is a benefit of the E-core design. Can't comment because I doubt there is enough evidence yet at Champ of many E-cores collapsing and what they look like versus metal center tube filters under similar conditions.
But back to my question about fully synthetic media filters. You might want to consider that under a collapsed center tube situation, the media can migrate.
Stop and think about the construction of the media itself. Generally it is a layered media of fibers. It can, although it may not, have a cotton batting to prevent media migration during over pressurization. But when there is enough pressure to collapse a center tube, all bets are off. The media can rupture and the fiber bits "blow" into the block past the core. As the oil continually tears lose the fibers.
So those with fully synthetic media who buy them because of the better filtration efficiencies..that is a drawback. Had Red Bowtie had this style filter on his engine, I am confident he would have found "bits of media" in his block. Whereas with a paper media E-core he didn't find any media downstream.
If Red Bowtie would have had a metal center tube filter--he "might" have found shredded bits of media downstream. But naturally--that is just a guess as there are various factors involved. I am not saying he "would" have, just that he might now that we know his by-pass was blocked.
That's why labs have all the neat equipment to blow filters up, plug them and destroy the media, etc... It may be new to you, but rarely is the condition new to the lab..
PS: let me also point out that if the filter is manufactured correctly and then collapses---we can debate the merits of various designs but at the end of the day, they all meet or exceed OEM specs and therefore it is moot what happens after a collapsed center tube as far as the filter manufacturer is responsible. E-Core, Metal tubed filter, plastic tubed, fully synthetic filters, paper media, stringwound media filters...
When there is "excess" pressure and the center tube collapses, what do you think happens to the oil pumps output after the collapse? Do you think the engine starves of oil?
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.
.
.
.
.
.
If the nylon cage design tests out to withstand more differential pressure than a standard metal center tube ( with those wider gaps that the cage has) , what would have happened to a filter with a standard metal center tube in this instance under the pressure the filter "might/must" have seen?
Let me reiiterate because I think people are getting ahead of themselves especially those who think the media blew ( or blows) through the center tube.
Here's some more food for thought. What do you think happends to a fully synthetic media when a center tube collapses?
If one looks at the picture evidence of the E-core that was provided back on page one, the media is intact--is it not? Yes, it's not where it is supposed to be because of the collapsed center tube.
Not being privy to the service report--and I won't ask because they won't tell me, just like i wouldn't tell our salesmen when I was in charge of warranties as company policy was the customer got the info first---i'll harzard a guess the center tube did collapse.
But the media is intact.
So what say you for those who are "worried" about the media blowing through the cage for whatever reason you want to come up with?
We have yet to see picture evidence of a collapsed metal center tube on this forum ( they happen, we just haven't had one posted)--what do you think the media looks like with one of those?
It's similar to the E-core.
The media can rip from the endcaps. The media is crushed in some form. The metal center tube does not just collapse in on itself and the filter media stays intact and in the form you would see in a used filter.
Under some conditions of collapsed center tubes, again I only ever saw metal tubes in my day, bits of shredded media went through the metal core and into the block. So it is laughable to me that there are some who are worried about E-cores gaps in the nylon cage. Maybe the metal core acted like a shredder due to the small holes? Ever thought of that? Maybe the larger gaps will prevent the media from "shredding" and the media will stay intact. Maybe that is a benefit of the E-core design. Can't comment because I doubt there is enough evidence yet at Champ of many E-cores collapsing and what they look like versus metal center tube filters under similar conditions.
But back to my question about fully synthetic media filters. You might want to consider that under a collapsed center tube situation, the media can migrate.
Stop and think about the construction of the media itself. Generally it is a layered media of fibers. It can, although it may not, have a cotton batting to prevent media migration during over pressurization. But when there is enough pressure to collapse a center tube, all bets are off. The media can rupture and the fiber bits "blow" into the block past the core. As the oil continually tears lose the fibers.
So those with fully synthetic media who buy them because of the better filtration efficiencies..that is a drawback. Had Red Bowtie had this style filter on his engine, I am confident he would have found "bits of media" in his block. Whereas with a paper media E-core he didn't find any media downstream.
If Red Bowtie would have had a metal center tube filter--he "might" have found shredded bits of media downstream. But naturally--that is just a guess as there are various factors involved. I am not saying he "would" have, just that he might now that we know his by-pass was blocked.
That's why labs have all the neat equipment to blow filters up, plug them and destroy the media, etc... It may be new to you, but rarely is the condition new to the lab..
PS: let me also point out that if the filter is manufactured correctly and then collapses---we can debate the merits of various designs but at the end of the day, they all meet or exceed OEM specs and therefore it is moot what happens after a collapsed center tube as far as the filter manufacturer is responsible. E-Core, Metal tubed filter, plastic tubed, fully synthetic filters, paper media, stringwound media filters...
Red Bowtie:
Earlier you posed a question the Turbo Jim about the sealing gasket or the seam letting go. Which happens first.
Depends on the pressure.
Is it continuous or a spike?
Here's another tech bulletin for you:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf
If the pressure builds in the filter, the metal will deform and "blow up like a ballon". As the bulletin shows. With further increases in pressure--the weakest point will let go first. It could be the sealing gasket or the lockseam.
Now as to your question about what filter to use. Obviously others in here wil give you their preferences.
My question to you is--are you going to have the by-pass relief valve unblocked?
You've already encounter a situation where this probably lead to a collapsed filter. And regardless of what brand you choose, this potentially could happen again if the same/similar conditions arise.
So unless you can change the conditions that caused the collapse ( provided it wasn't a mismanufactured filter) there is the real possibility of you encountering the same problem later with the filter you choose.
Now as for the engine itself a few questions:
How long have you had it?
Is it under some sort of warranty?
If so, you may be able to recoop your repair costs because of the blocked valve causing the failure. And you can use the Champ service report as evidence it was not the filter element that "caused' the problem.
If there is no warranty--then you might want to think about unblocking the by-pass if you are going to street drive and not race.
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Speaking of racing..when I first went to work for Champ Shirley Muldowney had sent in a filter for a potential claim. It seemed the filter blew off the stud during a run and she ( or her crew ) thought it might be a filter problem. Errrr..note to Shirley, if the filter blew OFF..it was over pressurized. And they blocked the by-pass as well.
Earlier you posed a question the Turbo Jim about the sealing gasket or the seam letting go. Which happens first.
Depends on the pressure.
Is it continuous or a spike?
Here's another tech bulletin for you:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf
If the pressure builds in the filter, the metal will deform and "blow up like a ballon". As the bulletin shows. With further increases in pressure--the weakest point will let go first. It could be the sealing gasket or the lockseam.
Now as to your question about what filter to use. Obviously others in here wil give you their preferences.
My question to you is--are you going to have the by-pass relief valve unblocked?
You've already encounter a situation where this probably lead to a collapsed filter. And regardless of what brand you choose, this potentially could happen again if the same/similar conditions arise.
So unless you can change the conditions that caused the collapse ( provided it wasn't a mismanufactured filter) there is the real possibility of you encountering the same problem later with the filter you choose.
Now as for the engine itself a few questions:
How long have you had it?
Is it under some sort of warranty?
If so, you may be able to recoop your repair costs because of the blocked valve causing the failure. And you can use the Champ service report as evidence it was not the filter element that "caused' the problem.
If there is no warranty--then you might want to think about unblocking the by-pass if you are going to street drive and not race.
----------------------
Speaking of racing..when I first went to work for Champ Shirley Muldowney had sent in a filter for a potential claim. It seemed the filter blew off the stud during a run and she ( or her crew ) thought it might be a filter problem. Errrr..note to Shirley, if the filter blew OFF..it was over pressurized. And they blocked the by-pass as well.
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