My guess is two things caused the media failure, with one contributing factor. First the causes: (1) Wrong oil viscosity being used, which caused excessively high oil pressure at start up and during warm up; and (2) the built-in (block mounted) bypass valve is stuck and did not open as it should which allowed the high oil pressure to directly impact the media. The contributing factor: The Ecore's nylon center cage with its large open areas that don't support the media. Under extreme high pressure, the media literally blew through one or more of these openings and was pushed by the oil flow right into the inlet pipe. The resulting restriction caused the oil starvation to the bearings.
Ecore Experience
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Sorry to hear of your recent troubles. Since AC contracts with Champion Labs for at least some of their current oil filters, I would've just dumped the whole matter in AC's lap to let them duke it out with their supplier. In any event, ultimately, the cost to repair engine damage directly traceable back to the oil filter is the oil filter manufacturer's responsibility. On the off-chance they try to stonewall you, a letter from an attorney should be ample evidence that you're neither too stupid nor too intimidated to champion your rights. A good attorney will add the cost of his billable hours to what he'd otherwise demand from the manufacturer in your behalf. Since many BITOGers (myself included) think highly of Champion Labs' offerings, let us know how this matter plays out.
Sorry it's not under happier circumstances.
I've had a bad feeling about this design since I learned about it. I'll hasten to add that my feeling is just based upon my own observation of the filter, and no hard evidence. Personally, I'm just a lot happier with an obviously robust, firmly anchored steel center tube that I know will keep the filter media and oil in the places that they belong.
Did you keep good documentation of the filter and its condition? I sure hope it doesn't mysteriously "disappear" in the mail.
Please do keep us informed of how this comes out, and especially what Champion has to say about it. If ecores are the way of the future, I may have to start stocking up metal tube filters. . .
So you didn't see any black pieces of the polymer core? I immediately assumed it collapsed.
We see there's are a couple of questions regarding the motor and the oil that we're using that we should have included in the information reported early on in the thread. We weren't sure it was entirely relevant, but apparently it might be. Sorry, but we thought we were getting a bit long winded with what we had already presented.
For the record, we're using a Chevy big block crate engine with 572 cid. We use the motor in an older Camaro and we call it the "family hot rod". We use it as a fun car for myself and my 2 boys to hang out with and to have a little entertainment with. Nothing serious, but it's something for the boys and myself to connect with. My oldest son is in the military and he plans his leaves to come home and to hang out with his dad and to goof around with the car. My youngest son is in high school and he thinks its cool that his dad has this hot rod and that he gets to play with it. I'm just happy to have a common connecting point with my kids and to have something to do with them. I was thinking that I'm a fortunate guy, all things considered.
The facts are this motor came with a PF1218 already screwed onto it and 20W-50 was the recommended oil weight to use when we bought it. We've used a PF1218 for the last 3 years with Valvoline 20W-50 without any problems. The motor would fire instantly and it ran flawlessly. It was a joy to own. We would not have intentionally screwed a cheap oil filter on it to risk losing the motor and the good times we've had with it. We wouldn't care if oil filters were $25 a piece, as long as our motor was well taken care of. This isn't a matter of money. This is about having quality time spent with 2 young boys. Scoggin Dickey PC in Lubbock TX will tell you a PF1218 is the oil filter that they recommend for this motor. At least that's what they confirmed with me when I called them 3 weeks ago. They were surprised to hear about a "change" in the PF1218 oil filter. This year on my son's leave over Memorial Day, we sat and looked at a car with an empty engine bay. We went to a ball game instead and had a great time. We just would have prefered to have been goofing around with the car. That's all.
The Champ Labs brochure claims the new Ecore design is superior in burst and collapse strength, along with filtration performance to the previous design oil filters. We would agree from an engineering design standpoint that it should be a better overall perfoming oil filter.
We trusted the AC part number to the point that if it retained the same PF1218 part number, it was at least on par, or better than the previous design oil filter, for the application. We don't think we did anything wrong by using the new filter. If the filter was knowingly inferior in performance or capacity to the previous design, AC would have changed the part number. Maybe? We've never had a PF1218 fail in our experience, or any oyher AC Delco filter in 29 years of experience. We're loyal customers to the brand name because of that performance.
We'll let Champ Labs do their analysis and see what they come back with. Considering the PF1218 part number and the broad application that the filter sees, if it's a poor design, we'll have a lot of company. If it's determined to be a rare mismanufactured part, then the BITOG community can rest well when we share that information.
We apologize for the lengthy response.
Thanks for the warm welcome and the supportive comments. We appreciate it.
For the record, we're using a Chevy big block crate engine with 572 cid. We use the motor in an older Camaro and we call it the "family hot rod". We use it as a fun car for myself and my 2 boys to hang out with and to have a little entertainment with. Nothing serious, but it's something for the boys and myself to connect with. My oldest son is in the military and he plans his leaves to come home and to hang out with his dad and to goof around with the car. My youngest son is in high school and he thinks its cool that his dad has this hot rod and that he gets to play with it. I'm just happy to have a common connecting point with my kids and to have something to do with them. I was thinking that I'm a fortunate guy, all things considered.
The facts are this motor came with a PF1218 already screwed onto it and 20W-50 was the recommended oil weight to use when we bought it. We've used a PF1218 for the last 3 years with Valvoline 20W-50 without any problems. The motor would fire instantly and it ran flawlessly. It was a joy to own. We would not have intentionally screwed a cheap oil filter on it to risk losing the motor and the good times we've had with it. We wouldn't care if oil filters were $25 a piece, as long as our motor was well taken care of. This isn't a matter of money. This is about having quality time spent with 2 young boys. Scoggin Dickey PC in Lubbock TX will tell you a PF1218 is the oil filter that they recommend for this motor. At least that's what they confirmed with me when I called them 3 weeks ago. They were surprised to hear about a "change" in the PF1218 oil filter. This year on my son's leave over Memorial Day, we sat and looked at a car with an empty engine bay. We went to a ball game instead and had a great time. We just would have prefered to have been goofing around with the car. That's all.
The Champ Labs brochure claims the new Ecore design is superior in burst and collapse strength, along with filtration performance to the previous design oil filters. We would agree from an engineering design standpoint that it should be a better overall perfoming oil filter.
We trusted the AC part number to the point that if it retained the same PF1218 part number, it was at least on par, or better than the previous design oil filter, for the application. We don't think we did anything wrong by using the new filter. If the filter was knowingly inferior in performance or capacity to the previous design, AC would have changed the part number. Maybe? We've never had a PF1218 fail in our experience, or any oyher AC Delco filter in 29 years of experience. We're loyal customers to the brand name because of that performance.
We'll let Champ Labs do their analysis and see what they come back with. Considering the PF1218 part number and the broad application that the filter sees, if it's a poor design, we'll have a lot of company. If it's determined to be a rare mismanufactured part, then the BITOG community can rest well when we share that information.
We apologize for the lengthy response.
Thanks for the warm welcome and the supportive comments. We appreciate it.
Yeah you do jump in with both feet. But I still don't see the relivence to me saying that a filter was returned with a shop rag in it and this particular case. Or that in any of my posts I have insinuated it's operator error.quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
He is new to Bitog. Once he gets around to reading the motor oil sections AEHASS will have him running M0W20 in no time.
FG, I know I hassle you sometimes, it'is just that you defend every filter failure. This guy has done everything right and you still insinuated that it was operator error. If this guy doesn't verify every service performed on the engine, you will claim operator error. As it is now, we have no idea why the filter failed, whether it was Operator error or mfg defect.
It very well could be a defect in the plastic cage. If quality control slipped up on the plastic injection mold machine and they did not get quite enough plastic in, you would have a leg of that plastic cage just waiting to fail once it saw the pressure in the engine. I admit, I have no idea what failed on the filter, and I am pretty confident that Champion will tell the truth, but if I were to bet i would put my money on a defect in the inner cage plastic.
I also pointed out a case where Champ paid $15,000 for a claim. There is someone in this forum who received payment for a claim ( cna't remember who but rememebr the discussion).
Champ, as hopefully other filter companies do, pay for mismanufactured filters. If there is no evidence of something wrong with the pieces and parts of the filter or other reasons to believe the filter was manufactured without defect.. just read every filter companies warranty statement.
But that is for the lab to determine, not someone on the internet or someone at a service garage who does not have the testing equipment or know of the construction/manufaturing process. And certainly not some salesman...lol
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As for the nylon cage..the testing is that it takes more pressure to collapse it versus the metal center tube types.
From my memory the standard collapse spec that OEM's require is a minimum 90psi. The metal center tubes and nylon cage both exceed that.
btw ..I think i linked the wrong tech bulletin..here's the one for colapsed center tubes for oil filters.
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/88-3R2.pdf
[ June 08, 2006, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]
I see that this filter doesn't have an internal bypass valve (only one set of holes). I guess because it is for a GM application.
So it has no self-protection mechanism.
Kind of makes you wonder if a backup bypass valve in the filter might be a good idea even in GM apps where not called for.
So it has no self-protection mechanism.
Kind of makes you wonder if a backup bypass valve in the filter might be a good idea even in GM apps where not called for.
I don't think the cage collapsed. I think the filter media blew through one or more of the large openings in the cage.
Think of it this way: You can disassemble a conventional filter and try to stick a screwdriver through the filter media and you can't do it; the metal center tube will prevent you from entering the center inlet area. Try that with an Ecore. Unless you happen to stick the screwdriver at a point where one of the nylon cage "ribs" are you can poke it right through. Thick, high pressure oil could do the same thing to the media itself, i.e., push it right through and into the center inlet area.
I would doubt that they test every cage. I can believe that the design calc, as well as the testing to confirm the design calc shows that the platic cage is stronger than the metal one. However, it would seem difficult to monitor the quality of the plastic cage in the production line.
I am no expert in plastic mfg processes, but I did get to use an injection mold machine when I was in school. It was difficult to adjust it to get the proper temp and volume of plastic into the mold. The adjustments would also drift, so occasionally you would need to readjust the plastic volume. If you did not get enough plastic in, you would have thin sections of your part. Granted this was a long time ago and I am certain todays machines are much more sophisticated. However, I find it difficult to imagine how they would verify the quality of each plastic center cage in the mfg line. With a metal cage you can easily verify the quality of the original sheet metal that is used for a bunch of center tubes.
FG, any idea how they monitor quality on the plastic cages vs the metal cages?
How does that tell you no bypass valve?
If your theory is correct then there are going to be a lot more like Rob's camaro. My car for example. I run 40 weight oil when it was speced 30, I rev it up the redline...a lot, and it's turbocharged just to top things off. My oil pressure is supposed to be around the 70 psi mark as well but my car isn't eating its ecore.
Rob PS: 572 crate, freaking awesome man!
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Ecores w/bypass have two sets of holes. The "down" pressure that opens the ADBV part of the combo valve routes flow through the filter. If it's too much the pressure, via the inner set of holes, it depresses the bypass area of the combo valve and allows some of the flow to bypass the filter media.
Originally all Ecores had two sets of holes. Later, for GM versions that had the bypass in the engine block, it was replaced with a traditional end plate with one set of holes.
The event that occurred in this situation is, in my opinion, very unlikely. As some have pointed out ..you can have all the pressure in the world ..and that media won't care. It's only the differential that means anything. Even very viscous oil won't do this in most circumstances. For this to happen I would think that the bypass mechanism would have to be defective. Sure, you can breach the media in any filter, but that doesn't usually result in any massive migration or disintegration. It merely opens a port for oil to move through. The type of insult described sounds more like a very high volume event with a defeated or defective in block bypass mechanism and near WOT usage with cold(er) oil.
There's always the possibility that the volume was so high and the oil so thick that, even with the pump relief, and the in block bypass, the flow was still so high that it created enough differential to "blow" the media through.
Most (filter) bypass events are during cold starts when the oil pump is also in relief. You may get a monmentary PSID until all the cavities are full. Otherwise all pressure is generated upstream from downstream. The filter is just one more intermediate point in the "bumper cars" collision of moving oil through the engine. It's not even there. The other situation for PSID is due to loading ...but this doesn't appear to be that type of situation ..and that too only adds a few PSID.
Now WHEN the oil pump is in relief ..this puts the greatest PSID on the filter since it's no longer part of a series circuit. None of the restrictions in the circuit have to merely represent changes in velocity. This is the only time that I've ever seen substantial PSID in across any filter ..even in VERY cold temps with VERY heavy oil.
If I was some type of detective trying to figure this out ..based on my prior observations with how pressure and flow impact oil filter PSID, I'd truly have to look at what damaged the media ..and not how the media failed. We've seen gaps in many filters. It takes very little to allow gobs of flow. Otherwise you would see failures all the time just due to the very limited allowances that bypass valves permit. To have this type of insult goes beyond what you would expect to see ..in any "filter dependant" failure.
[ June 08, 2006, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
If your in-block bypass valve ever got stuck and failed to open, then it could happen. I think that's what ultimately caused the media failure here. The in-block bypass didn't open and a pressure spike went directly to the filter and blew the media through one of the cage openings.
At the very least, this could be an indication that Ecore filters are not a good choice for GM applications that have in-block bypass valves.
I see, thank you.
Interesting, think I'll be servicing that bit soon.
Absolutely. I think the Ecore design includes the function of Champion's unique placement of the bypass valve. A high pressure wave hitting the filter will encounter that nitrile flap and open it before going to the media. With a GM in-block bypass, if the valve is just a little bit slow opening the wave goes directly to the filter where there is no bypass.
Let's keep in mind that the early Ecores for GM application still had the holes for the filter mounted bypass valve. Now they don't. Perhaps Champion should have left well enough alone.
Why anyone would recommend racing 20w-50 as a break in oil is beyond me. However once you have broken in the engine again switch to something synthetic. Unless you are seriously racing that engine, not just an occasional WOT, a racing motor oil is not going to offer a useful advantage.
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That is surely the case in this application. I would imagine, however, that the mandate of meeting OEM spec's probably trumped the economy of keeping the added holes/bypass. I also imagine someone patting themselves on the back for the economy of such an action ..then someone in risk analysis raining on the parade later on.
Does anyone think GM didn't test the Champ made filters on their engines first before approving the design change? ( The first generation and second of the E-core).
After all, Champ also supplies the Corvette filter for AC (or did and they are a secondary supplier again) so I think the Champ filters have seen some higher output engine field testing.
After all, Champ also supplies the Corvette filter for AC (or did and they are a secondary supplier again) so I think the Champ filters have seen some higher output engine field testing.
It's still a collapsed center tube though. Whether the media "blows" through or not. What do you think happens with a metal center tube design? It still takes excessive differential pressure to "collapse" it. Which also can deteriorate the media and in some instances "blows" right past the tube in bits.
The style of the center tube does not keep the media intact under a collapsed situation.
Having looked at the pictures...I don't see where the media has migrated past the filter. Only when they cut it open will they know. And I don't recall Red Bowtie claiming he found any oil filter media in the block.
So the nylon cage design acted like a metal center tube would have..imho.
Under some extreme conditions of collapsed center tubes, media can migrate past the filter element. And this was when only metal ones were used that I saw in the lab. I'd been gone 3-4 years before E-core came out.
As Red Bowtie is doing..wait for the lab report.
Btw..the screwdriver analogy is nice but it makes no difference in an element which is seeing uniform pressure across the media. The oil doesn't pick one spot to attack and leave the rest of the media dry, does it? Same when the center tube collapses. It doesn't do it because of a pinpoint bit of pressure.
I realize the screwdriver analogy is somewhat faulty, but I only used it to illustrate that with the nylon cage there are large areas where the media simply isn't supported. That's not the case with metal center tubes.
I also realize that what we are talking about here is pressure differential between the inlet and outlet side of the filter. You are going to get large pressure differentials and pressure spikes with thick oil when the bypass valve fails to react quickly enough. In the case of a normal metal center tube, the media may deform and the tube may crush. But in the case of the Ecore, the nylon cage may withstand the pressure and not deform itself, but the media will be pushed through the large openings in the cage. I think that's what happened in this case. I don't thing any media left the filter and actually entered the engine, but it's clear from the picture that the media was pushed into the center area of the filter and almost totally blocked the inlet into the engine.
I also realize that what we are talking about here is pressure differential between the inlet and outlet side of the filter. You are going to get large pressure differentials and pressure spikes with thick oil when the bypass valve fails to react quickly enough. In the case of a normal metal center tube, the media may deform and the tube may crush. But in the case of the Ecore, the nylon cage may withstand the pressure and not deform itself, but the media will be pushed through the large openings in the cage. I think that's what happened in this case. I don't thing any media left the filter and actually entered the engine, but it's clear from the picture that the media was pushed into the center area of the filter and almost totally blocked the inlet into the engine.
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