Exactly my thought. The metal center tube could have been well bowed in.quote:
This doesn't mean that you didn't have other filters fail. It just means that any failures didn't result in starvation.
Expensive, but good lesson. Good thread.
Exactly my thought. The metal center tube could have been well bowed in.quote:
This doesn't mean that you didn't have other filters fail. It just means that any failures didn't result in starvation.
I think that he was most assuredly in fully functional relief when this occured. If this was a simple stuck pump relief, he would have seen progressive pressure and the worst that would happen is that the can would blow off ..or he might break his distributor drive/intermediate shaft. The element, imho, could care less.quote:
What was the chain of events here? Did the oil pump pressure relief valve stick open causing the oil system to become over pressurized? If so then what was the filter's role in what we believe was oil starvation to the engine?
Let's give Champ aquote:
Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
Just an update.
We've made the request to the claims management folks to have our oil filter returned to us.
....
We've learned something about oil systems through this website and look forward to learning more.
Thank you everyone for your help.
I'm going to guess "the same", as the in block bypass doesn't regulate pump pressure it just regulates what pressure the filter sees.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
A stuck oil pressure relief valve would be my guess as the cause of this problem as well.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
A few things..
The 70 PSID that Champ mentioned is not what the E-core center tube/element collapses at. That's the OEM spec that is the minimum it should withstand. If my memeory is correct..
A usual question when a collapse happens is--why this time?
A by-pass valve will allow unfiltered oil past the element and downstream when the differential pressure reaches the minimum opening pressure of the valve.
However with a pressure spike of significant magnitude---no element--- will withstand the differential pressure. No by-pass valve can open quick enough to relieve the differential pressure.
The engine doesn't know if it has an AC brand, any other brand, or which filter manufacturer built it on it.
So regardless of brand, regardless of construction, the element will collapse under pressure spikes that exceedes the individual filters spec--and all are made by US manufacturers will meet or exceed the 70PSID requirement for this particular engine.
Generally it is the oil pump pressure regulating valve that has stuck and flowing way to much oil. When the engine is shut off and an inspection is made of the regulating valve, the debris has usually becomes dislodged (drops back into the pan) and that makes it hard to diagnose as the cause of the problem.
No one reading this thread or Red Bowtie himself knows how much pressure the oil pump put out. This isn't Formula One or the IRL. There isn't a black box on the engine ( unless corrected) that will have recorded the output and pressure.
This is why with the by-pass blocked Red Bowtie could merrily roll along and not have an apparent problem in any other filter previously used. This E-core would have lasted until he changed his oil--just like all the previous filters-- except it was subject to different conditions than the previous filters on the engine.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
Very rare for this to happen on BBCs/SBCs. You're more likely to twist or shear off the pump shaft or tear up the teeth on the camshaft or distributor drive gears if the oil filter didn't split open or pop off first.quote:
Originally posted by Big Jim:
A stuck oil pressure relief valve would be my guess as the cause of this problem as well.
Frankly, this is what I expected Champion to find (although I didn't think they would find the nylon cage collapsed).quote:
Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
As promised, the service report from Champ.
Complaint: Reportedly the filter collapsed during service. Major engine damage was reported.
Test Results:
1. The nylon core is broken and media has collapsed inward. Previous lab testing indicates a differential pressure in excess of 70 psi required to damage this type filter in this manner.
2. This engine should be equipped with a bypass valve that opens during periods of high differential pressure. This bypass valve has obviously failed to function properly.
Note: There was nothing found which indicated the filter was defective. The filter has been in service on an engine that malfunctioned.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?quote:
Originally posted by TurboJim:
I'm going to guess "the same", as the in block bypass doesn't regulate pump pressure it just regulates what pressure the filter sees.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
quote:
Originally posted by TurboJim:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
[qb] A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?I'm going to guess "the same", as the in block bypass doesn't regulate pump pressure it just regulates what pressure the filter sees.A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
427Z06..I suggest your reading comprehension needs some work as well..along with work on your people skills.
The regulating valve is in the oil pump.
The filter or block has a "by-pass" valve..it does not regulate flow and nowhere in my question did I ask about the "by-pass", I asked about the regulating valve. I never asked about his blocked by-pass valve. If I wanted to, I would have.
Common terminology for people who work on these engines is either "pressure relief valve" or "bypass pressure valve." Virtually no one calls them "regulating valves". Thus you provide evidence to my original premise, you probably never been inside of one of these engines, if any engine.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
427Z06..I suggest your reading comprehension needs some work as well..along with work on your people skills.
The regulating valve is in the oil pump.
The filter or block has a "by-pass" valve..it does not regulate flow and nowhere in my question did I ask about the "by-pass", I asked about the regulating valve. I never asked about his blocked by-pass valve. If I wanted to, I would have.
And we know numerous other engines are running around with this modification, even if it's not such a great idea for the street without careful consideration. If it was common for the "pressure relief valve" to stick, I'm sure we'd hear about plenty of oil filter splitting, bursting, blowing out the gasket or at least leaking. In this case, I don't recall anything other than the engine croaking due to loss of oil flow, and we found the media in the oil filter outlet hole.quote:
Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
We've cut open our older PF1218's to inspect the filter media to keep track of what's going on inside the motor. We haven't noticed any of the center tubes being dented or collapsed as some folks have suggested.
Yes, looks like those folks understand the implications of the mod. However, I'll go out on a limb and fathom a guess that many more people are using the filter the engine builder/seller recommends.quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
My end usually sees people who do this using the HP Fram lineup. So it may reduce the instance of falling into these niche situations that can cause this type of failure.
The pressure relief valve is located in the oil pump in a BBC.quote:
Originally posted by Pantera 74L:
The pressure regulating valve located near or in the oil pump is set at 40 to 60 psi.