Ecore Experience

[Gary Allan]

Welp ..under the list of acceptable conditions to validate strength ...any of my efforts will be a waste of time.

Let's just leave this in the corner of "the usual suspects".

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
So if I understand this correctly, a functional bypass would have prevented the Ecore collapse and would have allowed unfiltered oil to circulate back into the motor. Just how much oil can a bypass flow anyhow? Enough to save the bearings? Just looking at the bypass hole, it doesn't appear that a whole lot is going to flow through it. Based on those observations, I'm not buying that a functional bypass would have saved anything in our situation.

---

Your assumptions are incorrect. The bypass would be working to prevent the failure, not after the fact. The bypass only has to flow part of the oil flow, not all of it. If you would have had a functioning bypass the filter would not have failed, plugged at all.

I don't think the car companies are using bypasses for kicks, they use them because they work.

Have you found a good reason to block the bypass yet?

-T

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
snip...

I see labman is bored. That's OK. Obviously a filter mfg employee or something. If steel cores are flimsy, then you really haven't seen our Ecore. Unless the one we have is a one-off, you're using the description of "flimsy" for the wrong part. The oil filter p/n and oil weight in this situation were specified by the builder of the motor. We were following their instructions. Do you arbitrarily change what's specified in your owners manual because you're a whole lot more knowledgeable? Until Champ built the Ecore, we were in good shape with a PF1218. Not so anymore. Hello to Wix p/n 51060.

snip...

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Unlike I suspect many of the Champ and Ecore bashers here, I do not work for a filter company or derive any of my income from one. I resent your suggestion that I do. In fact it is the Champ bashing Wix weasels that seem to have disappeared.

OK, we have one Ecore that failed under conditions far removed from normal service.

May as well dump Wix, http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003744

How about those sturdy steel center tubes, http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003043

I mentioned a Baldwin that failed after cold starts at -40 degrees. OK, I forgot, it was an Amsoil. I believe people here continued to use Amsoil even after this warning, http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000720Pe

Perhaps is is not a good test, but I have tightened a radiator hose clamp down on both a plastic center tube and a steel one. The steel one felt like it took a lot less torque to collapse. The plastic didn't break, but just deformed.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
A few more observations on the filter and a reply to some comments.

The filter media appears to be quite durable. There were no tears found. It just appears to have gotten pushed through the wall of the Ecore and into the outlet, which apparently reduced the flow of oil, which led to the bearing failure.

So if I understand this correctly, a functional bypass would have prevented the Ecore collapse and would have allowed unfiltered oil to circulate back into the motor. Just how much oil can a bypass flow anyhow? Enough to save the bearings? Just looking at the bypass hole, it doesn't appear that a whole lot is going to flow through it. Based on those observations, I'm not buying that a functional bypass would have saved anything in our situation. A blocked bypass and a solid filter that doesn't collapse under moderate pressure still works for us. Why would circulating unfiltered oil not contribute to a death spiral? Especially through a restricted orifice like a bypass valve?

---

The bypass port doesn't need to allow full oil pump flow. It only has to allow sufficent flow around the filter to drop the filter differential pressue below a level that will damage the filter while providing partial oil flow until this condition no longer exists.

That's it's job and why GM and every other manufacturer uses a bypass. GM has it internal to the engine, others have it as part of the filter, but they all use it.

I really don't think a Chevy engine is anything special compared to a Ford or Mopar. We don't see the Ford and Chrysler guys running no bypass full flow oil filters on any engines that I'm aware of anyway. I have a number of different brands of high performance Ford FL1A size fliters around and every one has a bypass valve.

So from what I've seen, the Chevy hot-rodder guys are the only ones who think it's not required, likely as 427 said previously, because some guy who was "famous" did it once and said it was good. I call that the "the fast guys do it, we better do it too" syndrom.

I think we've answered the question of which is worse - a small amount of unfiltered oil running through a bypass circuit or NO oil flow from a collapsed filter. Personally, I'll take a little unfiltered oil for a brief period any day compared to the alternative...

[ June 21, 2006, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[Pete C.]

snip... In fact it is the Champ bashing Wix weasels that seem to have disappeared.

Sorry dude. A Wix employee I may be, but I have yet to bash any other filter manufacturer on this site.

 

[Gary Allan]

I dunno if he was referring to you, Pete

You're right. The worst thing I've ever heard you say was "go play with your gauges"

But while we got your ear ....hmmmmm..(assume William F. Buckley Jr. "hmmmm") ...just what is the Wix threshold for metal tube collapse. Is it more or less then the alleged Ecore 70 psid, hmmmm??

 

[Pantera 74L]

FG is close with his 70psi. Champ's in house minimum collapse number is 75psid. No coincidence that it matches the OEM specs.

Actual ecore collapse is over 100psid.

 

[Pete C.]

Not to avoid an answer, but there are a bunch of variables. length of tube, thickness of metal, number/size of perforations, spiral or side seamed etc. and the application the tube is designed for. Give me a Wix PN and I'll try to find out.

So what appears to be 2 identical tubes may be an apple and an orange.

Personally, I can't blame this ralphed engine on the filter or it's design.

I do know that if you ralph an engine without a working bypass, all bets are off in the warranty department.

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pete C.:
snip... In fact it is the Champ bashing Wix weasels that seem to have disappeared.

Sorry dude. A Wix employee I may be, but I have yet to bash any other filter manufacturer on this site.

---

Since you are still around, it should be obvious I didn't mean you, but some that were strong bashers of Champ and the Ecore when they were here. Nothing wrong with working for Wix as long as you say so. Look how we all admire Johnny from Pennzoil. I guess I was too burnt to realize how much of a slam I was giving Wix. Sorry.

Actually it would be nice for those in a position to know to comment on matters like do the new, smaller filters use better media than the older ones? Does the Wix equivalent of the PF 47 use the same media as the Wix equivalent of the PF 52?

 

[Red Bowtie]

Thought it might be time to say thank you to everyone who took the time to read the thread and to think about what happened to our motor, asked some questions and offered some suggestions. We've probably accomplished our mission here.

As it was mentioned earlier, things have been pretty well figured out. You can only disect navel lint so far, and we certainly don't want to offend anyone, especially by re-hashing things nine times over, or by bashing any products. We were here for an education.

We've found out a lot about our oil system here. Things we didn't have a complete appreciation for a week ago when this got started.

We have come to learn....

Not to use an Ecore design oil filter for our extreme application.

A functional bypass manages the differential pressure and is strongly recommended.

We need to do some research on lighter viscosity oils.

Steel cores come in a variety of designs, with spiral cores being stronger and rounder than straight seamed cores.

10 psi oil pressure for each 1000 rpm and around 10-12 GPM's typical flow for an oil system. (and Northstars at redline are 20 GPM)

There's a lot of practical knowledge available on BITOG from some pretty helpful folks.

And that's what the BITOG website said it was all about... educating folks about oil systems.

Thank you again, everyone.

RB

 

[JohnBrowning]

I can vouch for GM Performance Parts recomending 20W50 in all of their crate engiens especialy the big blocks. Even the ZZ small blocks called for 20W50 though.

 

[Filter guy]

RB... I only stated it was "conceivable" you could have had an E-core previously. As Champ has been suplying them to AC for near 2 years.
Depending on stock rotation, butying a few at a time,..and all that..

I'm glad someone else finally noticed that the 70PSID Champ mentioned in the service report --is not-- the collapse point of the E-core.

And , in lab testing, it takes a higher PSID to collapse an E-core versus a standard metal center tube.

If it didn't Pete C. from Wix might just chime in with a counter claim.

So the "fact" that the E-core collapsed would mean that the previous AC PF1218 would have collapsed that little bit sooner with it's metal core.

As to the theory that the media "plugged" the outlet enough to "restrict flow"... If one puts their thinking cap on..oil goes through media. Media will not stop the flow of oil. With the pressure(s) needed to collapse a center tube, it is an interesting proposition by some to think that the media --all by itself-- with the oil pump pumping away with high pressure would restrict the flow of oil out of the outlet with no by-pass to relieve flow from the element.

I have been trying to get some sort of time frame as to the length of time those who think the media "restricted" flow at the outlet enough under a high output oil pump sending oil through a filter that has collapsed.

It just makes little sense to me. Especially with the stated claim by Red Bowtie and the service report that the media is intact.

Just how does intact media which flows at higher pressure than collapse point restrict flow?

The outlet port in the fliter is meaningless in all this if one stops and thinks about it. Oil can flow 360 degrees through and around media.

If media "restricts" the flow of oil through an opening the size of the outlet..just think how restrictive the same media is that is resticting flow of oil through those itty bitty holes in the metal center tube....

 

[Lazy JW]

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
... Why would circulating unfiltered oil not contribute to a death spiral?...

---

Huh? I have personally drive Volkswagens for hundreds of thousands of miles with no filter at all. A hobby car used on drag strips that is torn down periodically for inspection really doesn't need a filter either. Are you really concerned about a few milliseconds worth of bypassed oil hurting your engine? I'm not. I do like good air filtration though. So did Volkswagen. They built over 20 million of those things that went probably billions of miles. No oil filters, but good air filtration.

At least we do know what happens when the oil flow stops.
Joe

 

[Winston]

Champion says that the plastic Ecore cage is stronger than a metal center tube. However, as mentioned previously, there are other differences with an Ecore(non-metal endcaps, etc).

What I would really like to know, is what differential pressure would have been requred to crush the old metal center tube design filter. Champ implied that 70psid was required to crush the Ecore. Hmm..

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
I can vouch for GM Performance Parts recomending 20W50 in all of their crate engiens especialy the big blocks. Even the ZZ small blocks called for 20W50 though.

---

I'd like to see that in writing. I've alway heard/read 10w30 for daily duties, SAE 30 and 15w40 for racing and towing.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazy JW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
... Why would circulating unfiltered oil not contribute to a death spiral?...

---

Huh? I have personally drive Volkswagens for hundreds of thousands of miles with no filter at all.

---

This is the hardest concept to get through the mythos of this technique.

It's like seeing Redford and Newman as they're about to jump off the cliff into the rapids below and Redford says he doesn't want to because he can't swim. Newman responds "You da-mn fool! The fall will probably kill you!"

That is, the fear is from unfiltered oil, as little as it may be, destroying the engine during the few seconds that it may occur ...when you're more likely to float a valve or miss a shift or whatever engaging in streetrodding anyway.

The concept leads us to believe that substantially damaging particles are routinely circulating in the oil ...even if this is true ..they aren't going to cause catastrophic damage ...unless you're already in some failure event to create particles THAT BIG. This is in engines that are getting refreshed every few years anyway. The whole exercize is attempting to prevent something that wouldn't matter if your worst fears are realized. If you can see it in the filter ..you're due to take it apart anyway.

The remedy is equally as pecular. You defeat a bypass mechanism to prevent particles from hurting your engine ...then you use a sieve (relatively speaking) as a filter ...letting vastly more slightly smaller particles through 24/7 putting more wear on the engine.

Again, you're refreshing every 3-4 seasons anyway

Ehhh

Everyone who has done this is in good company ...and plenty of it.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

It’s been claimed that the filter failed due to excessive filter differential pressure. What was the cause of the high diff. pressure? When mounted on an engine, the differential pressure across the filter is roughly 5% of the system pressure (i.e. about 3 lbs out of 60lbs). Using the 5% ratio, the system pressure would need to be 1400 lbs to achieve 70 lbs. diff.

Is there some combination of operating conditions that is known to cause differential pressure across the filter of 70+ lbs.? If so, what are they?

 

[Gary Allan]

Brian ..you skipped a good bit of this thread. When the pump relief is closed and you have a series fluid circuit, yes, the filter will be in direct proportion to the engine as the engine presents backpressure to flow. The filter is next to nothing.

Open the oil pump relief, and that's no longer the case.

 

[427Z06]

Yep, we even got a picture of Gary giving his presentation:

 

[Gary Allan]

What are you trying to say here, pal