Ecore Experience

[Gary Allan]

He could have had substantial flow reduction before the element collapsed, imo. The time frame isn't too much of a factor when you're at 5000 rpm. You smoke up whatever static oil is sitting there ..plus any that may be pumping. Once the flow is reduced and the temp exceeds the ability of the refresh rate to cool it (so it stays what we consider oil) ..you're history after any AW layer is burned off. This wouldn't have much of a time frame to it.

That is, the center cage could have been intact and the engine could have been toast already ..but the events would be so close together that it really doesn't matter, imo. If the center cage was made of titanium and the media of kevlar ..the same thing could have occurred. Once the pump is in relief there is no assurance of any oil flow (although there will typically be plenty with a bypass)

 

[T-Keith]

I think all of this center tube talk is nitpicking. Bottom line is that the safety mechanism to prevent this from occurring was disable, with no real reason, and the result is a blown engine. The fix is not a different filter but a change to the real problem.

Kind of like putting a solid piece if metal in your fuse box and having a car fire. If your going to disable the safety feature then be prepared to face the consequences.

 

[Lazy JW]

In my business (sawmill maintenance) we do what is called "Root cause failure analysis". From what I have read here it seems to me that disabling the bypass was the root cause of the failure, which was augmented by using a filter which was not designed for this new condition. The heavy grade oil didn't help either, there is just no way it could be up to full operating temperature that soon. Clearly a case of operator error.

The decision to continue operating without a functional bypass boggles the mind, but what consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of their own garages is no concern of mine.

I do applaud Red Bowtie for his continued good humor in sharing this with us. Thank you.
Joe

 

[Filter guy]

While I agree with T-Keith and Lazy JW...

I still would like to understand the "time frame" issue.

Engine is running at X rpm...he goes to WOT..oil pump sends more oil.. Filter can't handle it then collapses.

What is the time frame? 1 second? 1/2 second? 1/4 second? Less? More?

Understanding that oil is always coming out of the filter and going through the engine to lubricate, the filter just doesn't relieve the pressure quick enough and collapses due to the differential pressure. ( Hasn't there been a flow of oil v pressure debate before?)

I do not see any condition which meant no oil came out of the filter. And once the filter is breached due to the collapse then the full output goes through the breach.


So i'm still hung up on the time frame business...

 

[Gary Allan]

I don't know ..but I don't think that it went that way, FG.

The normal fluid flow, basically dedicated to go through the filter and the engine, is disrupted when the pump relief is open. There you can have less flow across the filter into the engine ...but the highest pressure ..hence you can get a very high differential. If the relief is closed ..then the oil doesn't care about the filter being there at all. It could care less. The engine is VASTLY more restrictive then the filter (in that situation). Open the relief ..and all bets are off as to what presents an easier path for the oil to go through. The filter can look like a brick wall to the flow (except that it's not made of bricks).

No need for a time frame view ...really.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Now had the media "stopped" the flow of oil in some way to the point of starvation of the motor--where would the excess pressure go? I'll tell you. It stays in the filter and would have deformed the can, which blows the lockseam or the sealing gasket and the filter leaks like a sieve. It only takes seconds to do this.( Also easily done in the lab, as i've had this done for tours in days past. Just block the outlet.)

---

The media didn't "stop" the flow, but "reduced it" enough so that the oil, and thus the bearings, overheated. The oil pump pressure relief valve operated as designed and shunted a significant amount of the flow which lead to the situation just described. No need for the filter to be deformed for this to happen and the pressure as read on the gauges would look relatively normal.

 

[Filter guy]

Gary:

Maybe we're talking apples and oranges here.

My questions about time frame relates to what 427Z06 is saying:

The media didn't "stop" the flow, but "reduced it" enough so that the oil, and thus the bearings, overheated. The oil pump pressure relief valve operated as designed and shunted a significant amount of the flow which lead to the situation just described. No need for the filter to be deformed for this to happen and the pressure as read on the gauges would look relatively normal.

According to this explaination the oil pump relief valve operated as designed.

If the valve closes, the filter sees the full oil and pressure output.

If it is open--per normal--yes the valve sends X amount of oil to the filter and Y amount back into the sump.

If X amount is needed to lubricate the engine and that is what the oil pump and relief valve are doing......then what is the time frame for the filter to "reduce" the flow enough to cause the problem in Red Bowties engine?

Maybe 427Z06 would like to explain as well.

Because as I see it, Red Bowtie had the filter on his engine for a length of time and ran his car "per normal" with WOT previously. The oil pump, relief valve, and filter all operated "per normal". Unless I am mistaken, the day of the problem wasn't the first time out with this filter on his engine.

So if that is the case then how, on this particular day, did the oil filter "reduce" the flow enough, when it had operated normally on previous outings away from the garage and not reduced the flow?

Or is the oil pump relief valve being blamed for reducing the flow to the engine and filter and shunting to much oil back to the sump. In which case, then it's not the filters fault then is it?

 

[Lazy JW]

I don't believe we should be thinking in terms of steady-state operation here. Mr. Red Bowtie stated that they revved the engine several times, WHAM, WHAM, WHAM! In a hydraulic system, pressure waves can slam back and forth pretty violently when this type of operation occurs. I believe the oil was 'cool enough', and the engine revved 'quickly enough' (this is a high-performance engine) to bring the pressure 'high enough' to slam the relief open, then backed off rapidly, slamming the relief shut, back and forth, several times, causing a pressure spike sufficient to over-pressure the filter. When you get pressure waves bouncing back-and-forth they can get in synch to where the instantaneous pressure at a given point is MUCH higher than would normally be expected. Normal pressure gauges will not react quickly enough to catch this even if you were watching. Mr. Filterguy is right, the filter was a victim, not a culprit.
Joe

 

[Gary Allan]

The filter was not at fault here, FG. It was just an indication of the conditions that were present when the engine grenaded. It would have grenaded with another filter. For that PSID to be present, as Champ indicated, in excess of 70PSID ..the flow thorough the filter would have to have been SEVERELY reduced ...meaning that the lion's share was being shunted to the sump/suction side of the pump. With such reduced flow ..the bearings are toast in a very short amount of time.

That's how you collapse a filter internally. You have a radical PSID. That only occurs when you have a very high pressure on the oil pump side ..and very little flow on the engine side.

Two things add to this mix of "view". One is the reactive property of viscosity ..and the other is the reactive property of how the media appears in different flow modes.

When the relief is closed ..the filter is just a minor ...very minor.. choke that falls into proportion with the engine restriction to the flow. Once the relief is open ..this is no longer the case. The engine is no longer determining what flow goes through the media. The backpressure of the engine's resistance is no longer determining the upside pressure that the media is seeing.

The filter becomes a d-amn that reduces flow. The reduced flow sets up a lower downstream pressure. The d-amn is now seeing the highest upstream pressure and low or no downstream pressure.


Let me say this another way.

Whether in relief or not, the engine produces a backpressure to flow. This will always be your downstream pressure. Lower flow ..less backpressure. Higher flow, more backpressure. When in relief, you have the highest pressure available ..regardless of what the engine is producing in backpressure. The filter sees this "difference" ...or this differential.

[ June 19, 2006, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[427Z06]

One other thing was demonstrative from this expensive lessons learned. Thick oil didn't save this motor, but lack of flow certainly killed it.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 427Z06:
One other thing was demonstrative from this expensive lessons learned. Thick oil didn't save this motor, but lack of flow certainly killed it.

---

(from Weird Science as Anthony Michael Hall sat in the bar with cigar in one hand and double scotch in the other)

Ain't it the twooth, baby. Ain't it the twooth.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
So if that is the case then how, on this particular day, did the oil filter "reduce" the flow enough, when it had operated normally on previous outings away from the garage and not reduced the flow?

---

Whenever the media bunched up and ended up close to and/or in the outlet hole of the filter is when the flow was reduced.

 

[427Z06]

FG, did you miss what I stated on page 5 of this thread?

quote:

---

Originally posted by 427Z06:
While it's likely that all oem equivalent filters are susceptible to damage without a correctly functioning oil filter bypass valve...

---

 

[sxg6]

A few more pictures.

I cropped them down a bit, i hope thats ok RB

 

[Red Bowtie]

Thanks SXG6 for helping out with the pics.

Here's the Ecore from the failed filter. Nearly every intersection of the plastic grid is cracked or broken. Some small parts are missing. We never found them.

The filter media was completely intact. No tears or rips, just partially extruded through the cage and filter outlet. The media had quite a bit of bearing material in it. Our guess is the Ecore broke early in the day and starved the motor for oil flow. It had 50-60lbs of pressure, but the flow wasn't there. A functional bypass probably would have saved the motor.

So for all you folks out there using these Ecore oil filters with a functional bypass, unless you always check the innards of the filter, how do you know this doesn't happen more often and you're all not running around with essentially a disabled oil filtration system?

Our impression of the Ecore is it's pretty flimsy. We can't imagine using it on anything other than a lawnmower, maybe. We'll never buy another one again. Other than for the almighty buck, why would an oil filter need to be made so cheaply?

As for the motor now, it's up and running with a Wix filter. We've changed the oil in it already and everything is perfect. We cut the filter apart and noted the beefy construction. Sort of made the Ecore look mickey mouse in comparison. Yes, the bypass is still blocked, but apparently that's the way it's been the last 3 years and it hasn't been a problem, until we had our oil filter learning experience.

Just another observation, the old design PF1218 that this motor had hanging on it when we bought it, looks just like the Wix we cut apart. We see no reason why an Ecore oil filter needs to be built cheaper than a Dixie cup.

What have we learned? Don't assume that just because it's the same part number, that it still works in all the old applications.

Last item, the Champ service report indicated an excess of 70 psid to collapse the Ecore in their lab tests. Our motor, stone cold, puts the needle at 72psi on startup, and a few more if the throttle is tickled. Would that suggest that the filter media has a low GPM flow rate across it? What should folks expect to see when the weather gets really cold? There's going to be enough oil flow going through the bypass to keep my buddy's 8.1L running?

If anyone would like to see pics of the rest of the filter, just let us know and we'll see what we can do.

Thanks for everyones comments and suggestions.

 

[Filter guy]

I'll reiterate again...

The service report did mention the filter was exposed to more than 70PSID, because that is the GM spec.

Champ claims the E-core collapses at a higher differential pressure than standard metal center tube.

1: They couldn't do that unless they have the data to back it up.

2: AC and GM would have also tested the E-core for collapse and also will know what the E-core collapses at.

3: Competitors ( like Wix, et all) have tested the E-core and if Champ is wrong in their claim...competitors would take note and exploit it with claims that the E-core does not collapse at a higher PSID than standard metal center tubes.

So be careful what you get hung up on.
--------------------------------

I'll also toss out that it is possible the filter collapsed on a different day than the engine had a problem.

Just because the engine had a problem and then the filter was looked at does not mean 2+2=4

The filter may have collapsed on a previous outing in the vehichle. Guages would not show a collapse. The only way one would know is to take the filter off.

The fact that the media was intact--to me--suggests a huge pressure spike. The filter then collapsed and with the breach..oil kept flowing and did not bother the media at all because of the breach.

Twisted cage means nothing ...have you ever seen a metal center tube collapsed? The pressures involved to cause that deform the metal.

Once that happens the design of the filter is not the "cause" of the problem. And any resultant effects are irrelivant. Had the filter not seen the pressure it did, it would have performed as expected. Which is why filter companies claim their filters meet or exceed engine manufacturers specifications.

btw..racing filters also collapse.
There isn't a filter company that makes filters that hasn't seen pressures that collapse even their strongest made filter.

I've personally seen heavy duty filters for over the road trucks with cores that collapse in excess of 180 PSID collapsed.

But if one thinks changing a brand of filters solves the problem..good luck to you.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Would that suggest that the filter media has a low GPM flow rate across it?

---

Well, at the time, sure. You gotta really think about what happens when you're outside of normal flow situations, RB. The filter ..virtually any filter, is nothing in resistance to flow. It never amounts to spit. If it was ..everyone with a M1, PureOne ..whatever would have flow reduced all the time. It's just not an issue of consequence for 99.99999% of users who have a normally operating oil system. Sure, they can potentially see very cold temps ..and very thick oil ...and their pumps may go into relief ...but they have a bypass. Hence they'll probably never see more then that setting in PSID.

That is, from the most "restrictive" media to the most liberal (in terms of full flow operation) ..the span isn't enough to account for this event due to that aspect alone.

As far as construction ..sure the Ecore design is not "conventional". Neither was the preception of plywood, particle board, or foil board for facia ..until everyone figured out that it didn't add any strength to supporting the structure. So, unless you were driving a truck through the place (which real wood facia wouldn't stop either) ..it was a waste to attempt to prepare for such things.


This is not to alter your disposition toward Ecore filters. In your experience I would not use them again either ..but I really think you need to re-evaluate just what happened here and put it in perspective. You seem to believe that you've been "boobytrapped" by a cheap product. What occurred, however, is that you put it in a league of service that it had no business being in ...nor any filter outside of one designed for racing. Even that is debatable. The fact that other filters didn't show issues, to some degree, is probably just luck. That is, their design features, that had nothing to do with their filtering performance, managed to "manage" the risk you subjected them to. It's entirely "accidental" that the construction of the filter and the abuse that it was subjected to worked out to no failures. Something like .."I spilled a gallon of acid, routinely, on the floor ...and nothing ever happened. Lots of people I know do this" ..only because your floors happened to be made of glass. If you spilled it on a limestone floor, which you installed not thinking anything of it, ..it would be a little rough blaming the floor. That's how far apart the construction and the coincidental insult that you saw have to do with this. The metal endcap/center tube construction is only one of many and just happens to be the most popular currently.


Thanks for the images. Any more that you can share would surely be appreciated.

 

[427Z06]

Yeah...I almost forgot. Thanks for sharing Red Bowtie. You provided an excellent learning experience for many.

Best of luck to you and your sons.

 

[Winston]

One final clarification. The 72psi that is seen at cold startup is not the differential pressure across the filter. The differential pressure across the filter will be much less than 72psi.

By switching to a "racing" filter, I am sure that that he is reducing the chance for filter failure. I would bet the max differential pressure required to collapse the center tube on Wix's filter is probably double that on the Ecore.

 

[Red Bowtie]

We'll work on getting a few pics of the rest of the filter posted so everyone can get a look at it. It's not something you see everyday, or want to see in your drain pan.

We were also very careful in putting the motor back together. The block was washed, honed, and washed again. All the passages were checked and cleaned. We went ahead and put a new forged crank, a set of rods, pistons and rings in it. The whole thing was balanced and reassembled. We did reuse the oil pump, but only after disassembling it and checking it out completely. As reported earlier, it's running again. We were able to exercise it for Fathers Day and we're happy to report that all is well. The only change from before to now is the oil filter. Everything else is as it was. One change at a time is our belief.

My only gripe about the whole event is the part number. After buying the same part number for the last 3 years, making sure that the filter had the same part number as the box said and that it was blue, we thought that was enough. After realizing it was different, all of the info we found said it was supposed to be a better filter, so we used it. Kind of hard to accept 100% responsibility for goofing up the motor. Oh well. Time to quit whining and get on with life.

We haven't gotten a response from GM Performance on our email with questions regarding the oil, the filter and the bypass used in their 572 in the video clip on their website. It's been over a week now. Just thought we'd check on what their setup was. Judging from the clip, they appear to be pretty proud of that motor. I can't say we abuse ours a whole lot less. We wonder if they've tried an Ecore on that hot dog yet?

Give us a few days to get the other pics posted. Thanks again everyone for the comments and suggestions and for sharing of ideas.