Ecore Experience

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Originally posted by Winston:
One final clarification. The 72psi that is seen at cold startup is not the differential pressure across the filter. The differential pressure across the filter will be much less than 72psi.

I would bet the max differential pressure required to collapse the center tube on Wix's filter is probably double that on the Ecore.

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Not necessarily so, Winston. It would be extremely rare ..but by no means impossible. That's the pressure differential that Champ reported that was required to break the center tube.

Metal tube/center wells are no where near as strong as the Ecore's. You can flatten them by stepping on most. The spiral wound center tubes are more resistant to collapse then the straight seamed type ..but they will still crush before an ecore. The problem with an Ecore is that, when it breaks, it factures and potentially fragments. Something that a metal tube will not do.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Not necessarily so, Winston. It would be extremely rare ..but by no means impossible. That's the pressure differential that Champ reported that was required to break the center tube.

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Color me skeptical. 70 psid may be the design stength, but this filter core fractured and pieces are missing so no one including Champion really knows what pressure it failed at. A small defect could have caused a catastrophic failure at a much lower psid than 70.

Take a piece of brittle plastic rod (it does appear to have fractured rather than bending into a pretzle), put a small notch in it, bend it and observe it snap.

Take a metal center tube, put an equal sized notch in it and most likely nothing will happen. If a big enough notch is made in a metal center tube to induce early failure, it will fail by bending and won't break into pieces that can get into the oil galleries.

Plastic that fails by breaking into pieces is the wrong material for that application.

 

[427Z06]

I'm wondering if the properties of a metal center tube or the Ecore's plastic center cage is the part we should be questioning. When I take apart an old Champ design, I find pretty stout and plentiful media securely glued to substantial metal endcaps. It's always been next near to impossible to tear the endcaps off the media. In order to get a good look at the media I always have to use a very sharp knife to cut away the end caps. Surely this is adding to the structural integrity along with the metal center tube.

Now with the Ecore design, it looks like the filter is counting entirely on the plastic center cage to maintain the filter's structural integrity. Anybody else notice this?

 

[sxg6]

I dont know much about center tubes.. But it's soo hard for me to believe that the nylon center tube of an e-core is stronger than a wix with a full sized steel center tube, held in place by steel end caps. A purolator without a full length center tube maybe, a fram with a full length center tube held in place by fiber endcaps maybe as well.. Again, i dont know much about this kind of stuff though

 

[Gary Allan]

I'll try to cut open an Ecore tomorrow and maybe another filter to see how easy it is to crush the center tube.

XS650- You're right. An injection molded plastic part hides defects very well. Typically they pull so many pieces and failure test them. That doesn't mean that all of them are that good. Metal center tubes have the advantage of a two step process in the formation ..and , as you said, even if there's an unexpected problem ..it doesn't necessarily trash can the entire thing.

427- I think that the center tube on an Ecore is there just to hold the media ..a "form"..period. I mean ..even if the polymer tube is strong ..I don't think that there's anything "robust" about it. I think that the entire filter relies on a "system" (poor term) to allow it to remove the "strength" that most filters have..just due to their construction method and (in concept) operate with impunity (visions of Foghorn Leghorn harassing the dog and running to the "chain limit").

I'm not wording this well.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I'll try to cut open an Ecore tomorrow and maybe another filter to see how easy it is to crush the center tube.

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May I suggest you do this with only the outer can removed. Then you may be able to lend some credence to my theory.

And...I didn't mean to short change XS650s critical review of the Ecore plastic center cage. The Ecore filter design may have suffered a double whammy when it comes to structural integrity.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I'll try to cut open an Ecore tomorrow and maybe another filter to see how easy it is to crush the center tube.

XS650- You're right. An injection molded plastic part hides defects very well. Typically they pull so many pieces and failure test them. That doesn't mean that all of them are that good. Metal center tubes have the advantage of a two step process in the formation ..and , as you said, even if there's an unexpected problem ..it doesn't necessarily trash can the entire thing.

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Ideally you would use a well used one so the plastic has been baked in hot oil for a few months. Maybe someone can donate a used Ecore for that. Please don't let that slowdown your initial test though.

Once you've done some testing on the filter, how about trying different notches in the center "tube" and bending the pieces to see if that induces sudden failure.

 

[labman]

I have compared the similar plastic center tubes out of cartridge filter elements to steel center tubes, L 15436 to ST 3950. The steel tube is a flimsy piece of trash compared to the plastic cage.

I have mostly lost interest in this thread. With the bypass being blocked and the outlandish high viscosity oil, the whole thing is irrelevant.

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
Nearly every intersection of the plastic grid is cracked or broken. Some small parts are missing. We never found them.

The filter media was completely intact.

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I'd be worried that those missing pieces of the cage don't cause future problems. I rather doubt they dissolved.

If the media was intact, just moved to another part of the filter, why is it now restricting flow?

 

[kanling]

If there are missing bits from the e-core cage, how can Champ assert with confidence that the filter was not defective? Is there any evidence of voids in the injection molding?

Well, anyway, if Red Bowtie says the engine makes 72 PSI and the cage is only designed to handle 70 PSI max, I guess it doesn't matter much.

But I am still surprised by the fact that previous filters Red Bowtie examined had no core deformation at all. Pressures high enough to crush the e-core certainly would also have bent other filters. That fact still makes no sense to me.

Personally, I'd switch to a lighter oil for this application if I decided to keep the bypass blocked.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by TurboJim:
I'd be worried that those missing pieces of the cage don't cause future problems. I rather doubt they dissolved.

If the media was intact, just moved to another part of the filter, why is it now restricting flow?

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You beat me too it. Every little oil passage needs to be thoroughly cleaned out and oil passage brushes pushed all the way through each one to be sure there isn't a piece of plastic wedged down some small passage.

Why a filter company would build a filter element core tube out of a material that acts like a brittle material and fractures when overstressed is beyond me. $$Just kidding, I understand.$$

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by kanling:


But I am still surprised by the fact that previous filters Red Bowtie examined had no core deformation at all. Pressures high enough to crush the e-core certainly would also have bent other filters. That fact still makes no sense to me.

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Not necessarily, that material acted like brittle material and fractured. A small manufacturing flaw in the plastic could have started the whole mess.

 

[Gary Allan]

New ..used ...so many cats ...so few recipes ...

I have both (it's a dessert topping!! No! It's a floor cleaner!! - No, it's both).

Well, looks like I have an excuse to get dressed tomorrow

 

[Pete C.]

How to test a center tube for collapse strength.

• Wrap the tube in something that will make it "appear" to be solid. Being mindful that kitchen plastic wrap won't work, but duct tape, the good stuff, might, on steel tubes.
• Seal off one end of the tube. Rubber stoppers work ok.
• Place tube in a holder that will only allow hydraulic pressure to exert it's forces on the entire exterior surface of the tube. The inside of the tube MUST be free to atmosphere through the unsealed end.
• Apply pressure to the outside of the tube.
• Record pressure at which the tube STARTS to deform. This is the collapse pressure.

Using your feet, the bench vice, your hands or a hammer is not how you do it. You have to apply the pressure uniformaly to the entire outer surface of the tube cylinder.

 

[Filter guy]

May I also add that Champ has been building that filter as an E-core for about 2 years for AC.

So it is conceivable Red Bowtie had the E-core filter on his engine previously. He just may have never noticed.

 

[Lazy JW]

He stated that they saved all of the old filters so were able to examine them and they were not E-cores.

I still happily use E-cores, but would never even contemplate anything but a racing filter for his application, and then only with a functional bypass.

Wrapping the E-core cage in duct tape and applying vacuum to the center would probably collapse it.
Joe

 

[kanling]

I took one apart before and I can attest to the fact that the plastic cage of an ecore is much stronger than typical metal cores (including NAPA gold). (Different part number than the one in this discussion)

But when I talk about strength, I am talking about amount of force to cause slight deformation.

quote:

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Maybe someone can donate a used Ecore for that.

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I still have a used one.

 

[goodvibes]

quote:

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Originally posted by kanling:
I'm going to venture this guess...

I take it as fact that the e-core "core" is "stronger" than the old design metal "core". But, it depends on how "strength" is measured. If you measure strength as a static load to a desired deformation, the nylon core may win. Under an "impulse" load, though, the nylon core might shatter where a metal core might recover.

I haven't actually crushed an e-core to see what happens, but if it shatters it shows the weakness of the e-core design. When a metal core fails, it should simply begin to collapse. It might continue to flow oil in a collapsed state. Even a collapsed metal core would hold the media back, I would think. Complete oil starvation would only occur on a complete collapse.

The e-core may fail at a higher diff pressure, but the instant the cage collapses or shatters, the output hole will immediately become totally clogged with media and debris and cut off oil flow almost instantly.

Maybe somebody smarter on strength-of-materials issues can back me up (or tell me how I'm wrong). This theory will explain why the previous generation filters didn't cause a problem even if they are technically weaker.

And if what I am saying is right, the e-core could certainly be blamed as an aggravating factor for the destruction in this engine.

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I like this description though I have no idea whether it's accurate. To FG, Red Bowtie has stated that he's got his previous used filters so no, he hasn't been using encores unknowingly and there is nothing here to suggest that an engine failure cause the collapse instead of the other way around. One change in the routine and instant failure. Yep, it's coincidence. It's a counter productive argument. Simply stating that it wasn't designed for this modified engine and was the wrong tool for the job would be accurate and point to the fact that it wasn't a filter defect that's at issue here. I believe that ecores are great for their intended use but not this one. I have one on my car right now. I believe Red Bowtie feels the same as he hasn't asked for a new motor and is considering using a filter with an internal bypass. Red Bowtie's a reasonable guy that wants answers, not a filter defense.

 

[Red Bowtie]

A few more observations on the filter and a reply to some comments.

The filter media appears to be quite durable. There were no tears found. It just appears to have gotten pushed through the wall of the Ecore and into the outlet, which apparently reduced the flow of oil, which led to the bearing failure.

So if I understand this correctly, a functional bypass would have prevented the Ecore collapse and would have allowed unfiltered oil to circulate back into the motor. Just how much oil can a bypass flow anyhow? Enough to save the bearings? Just looking at the bypass hole, it doesn't appear that a whole lot is going to flow through it. Based on those observations, I'm not buying that a functional bypass would have saved anything in our situation. A blocked bypass and a solid filter that doesn't collapse under moderate pressure still works for us. Why would circulating unfiltered oil not contribute to a death spiral? Especially through a restricted orifice like a bypass valve?

My opinion is after seeing an Ecore cage firsthand outside the filter, I find it hard to believe it survives in anything bigger than a lawnmower engine, and I wouldn't use it there either because I like my lawnmower.

I see labman is bored. That's OK. Obviously a filter mfg employee or something. If steel cores are flimsy, then you really haven't seen our Ecore. Unless the one we have is a one-off, you're using the description of "flimsy" for the wrong part. The oil filter p/n and oil weight in this situation were specified by the builder of the motor. We were following their instructions. Do you arbitrarily change what's specified in your owners manual because you're a whole lot more knowledgeable? Until Champ built the Ecore, we were in good shape with a PF1218. Not so anymore. Hello to Wix p/n 51060.

Hey FG. This was our first Ecore. We did notice. We checked our stock. All the PF1218's left on our shelf are the old design, steel cored, beefy construction oil filters that worked just great for us. Reminder, we pulled this motor apart late last fall, and everything was in great shape, especially the bearings. Our fatal flaw was believing the hype that the Ecore design was a better performing filter, and then using it.

We've had a few sidebar messages asking for more pics of the Ecore and the filter itself. We'll see what we can do.

Thanks again for all the comments. Hopefully through all of this, someone else is saved the grief of bearing failure from an Ecore oil filter.

 

[Pete C.]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazy JW:
... Wrapping the E-core cage in duct tape and applying vacuum to the center would probably collapse it.
Joe

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That will do too.