Dr.T- SuperSyn to cover-up deficiencies of Tri-Syn

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"Hmmm SuperSyn to cover-up deficiencies of Tri-Syn, Dr.T." Dr. T., I came across your statement about M1 TRI-SYN , I also mention that I heard M1 TRI had deficiencies, but no one could tell me why. Why does M1 TRI in your opinion have deficiencies? slowlane
 

Patman

Staff member
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One problem I know TriSynthetic had was it thinned out too easily in their 5w30 grade. This seems to have been solved with SuperSyn. Trisynthetics antiwear package was not as good either, except towards the end when the SL version added moly to it. SuperSyn also has more boron in it.
 
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Slowlane, to some exteny every oil has it's deficiencies. But if you read the UOA's on this board you will find M1 does a great job across the board even against higher priced oils that should be much better.
 
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Thanks for the input guys... I was being a little facisious, but...remember when Coke changed the formula and everyone got bent out of shape??? If Mobil 1 is "the best there is" or "the best for your car", then why keep changing the formula? And while I agree that there should be changes and improvements with time, there are obviously deficiencies in the previous formulation(s) that they keep ironing out. That said, it's a very good oil...
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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I liken the situation to Computer Software. Sure they know there are certain deficiencies and maybe a few bugs, but for the most part, it works! [Eek!]
 
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quote:
I liken the situation to Computer Software. Sure they know there are certain deficiencies and maybe a few bugs, but for the most part, it works!
Great analogy. I like that. Very true! [Cheers!]
 
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Saratoga, NY
OK, everyone soft stepped around this but I'll come right out and say what I didn't like about Mobil 1 and that is I thought its barrier anti-wear package was minmal/marginal. I used Mobil 1 (mostly Tri-Syn) in my '95 Honda Civic with 6,000 mile oil & filter intervals since about the 10,000 mile mark and by 80,000 miles, the car emitted the much-dreaded “piston-slap” sound at start-up on cold mornings. Based on my conversations with other Civic owners, this is the AVERAGE point on the odometer that this car will exhibit this symptom. Now, I realize that sort of wear is inherent with the Honda (and some other makes) short piston skirt design but shouldn’t my using a “super-premium” synthetic oil like Mobil 1 (and reasonable change intervals) have delayed its onset significantly? After all, they advertised the oil as having kept an engine alive for over a MILLION miles with some parts showing almost NO wear. [Roll Eyes] When the oil companies switched from SH to SJ class oils, they reduced the amount of ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) in their formulas. This stuff can harm catalytic converters over time and the EPA was pressuring the automakers to increase the warranty on their emissions equipment from 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Mobil 1 went even further in reducing this compound than any other oil I know of, dropping their level to 0.075% while most SH & SJ oils were 1.0% to 1.5% and racing formulations could have 2.0% or more. I think that Mobil 1 over-estimated the protective benefits of their Tri-Synthetic formula base oil when they went the extremely low ZDDP additive route and the result is a lower than anticipated level of protection in real world conditions. Nothing catastrophic, but lower protection is the opposite of the benefits they advertise. I’ve seen the lab test results from WTD who used Mobil 1 10W30 in his 2 year-old Chevy V8 pick-up and the results were alarming. Lead particle levels were elevated as well as other problems like a low TBN (Total Base Number) which suggests that the anti-corrosion protection was dangerously low. The sample tested only had 5,000 miles on it and the vehicle had only 20,000 miles on it when he started testing its oil. I find it unlikely that the engine could still be “breaking in” at this stage. He used Mobil 1 again and tested a second sample after only 3,000 miles. Results were improved but could only be described as merely average. Am I wrong to expect more than ‘average’ results from an oil retailing for $4.50 per quart after only 3,000 miles of use? Most recently, I used Mobil 1 Tri-Syn 10W30 in my Honda push mower (3.5hp, I think). I left it in for two years of moderate use ... maybe 30 hours each year/season and probably never for more than an hour at a time. When I drained the oil, it had a great deal of "glitter" in it. [Eek!] GLITTER? This machine almost always got annual oil changes and the oil was still a golden color (which is why I left it in a 2nd year) so I can't really blame that glitter on old deposits ... especially since I used Mobil 1 in this thing throughout its life and it never went more than 2 years between changes. Lastly, if you look at all the M1 UOAs on this site, you'll see a marked improvement when owners switched form Tri-Syn to SuperSyn ... I bet 100% of the time ... and SuperSyn, while providing some really good UOAs, is not providing the absolute BEST (elite) results from all the oils tested to date (here). --- Bror Jace
 
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quote:
and SuperSyn, while providing some really good UOAs, is not providing the absolute BEST (elite) results from all the oils tested to date (here).
Bror, you make some valid points but I have to disagree somewhat. Yes, Mobil has it's weaknesses and it is the barrier additives. It has low HT/HS relative to other oils and for $5qt, you can only do so much although Schaeffer's dollar for dollar is better. Where I think your wrong is the recent UOA's of SS have shown it to be as good as any. Where does it not show to be as good as Amsoil or Redline? We have seen enough UOA's of Amsoil and Mobil 1 to really say Amsoil is not better. As far as the Civic piston slap goes, I stared noticing the same thing around 80k miles in a Corolla that used mostly Trisynthetic for most of it's life. It's possible that is was the cause but I really doubt it. It's just the nature of the engines I think. IMO, M1 has already proven to be as good as the so called "best synthtics". 3MP's study should interesting.
 
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buster, keep in mind that my above criticisms apply to tri-synthetic. I'll admit that Super-Syn is a far superior lubricant. " ... recent UOA's of M1 SS have shown it to be as good as any. Where does it not show to be as good as Amsoil or Red Line?" Can you find me an analysis using M1 SuperSyn which has every wear value at 0, 1 or 2 PPM? I can't remember seeing one ... one with at least 4,000 miles on it. [I dont know] --- Bror Jace
 
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quote:
Can you find me an analysis using M1 SuperSyn which has every wear value at 0, 1 or 2 PPM? I can't remember seeing one ... one with at least 4,000 miles on it.
Patman just listed two of Redline and Schaeffer's that are excellent. I don't see any for Amsoil. Two reports doesn't really say much to me though. I do remember a SS report in a Turbo with iron only around 7 at 4k miles. Thats pretty **** good. You can't say it's not as good as the elite anymore IMO. There are too many inconsistant UOAs' from Amsoil. [Smile] What about this one: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000434 [ June 07, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
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Buster, this thread was originally about Tri-Syn and so most of my comments (criticism) was about that formula. I'm not saying that SuperSyn doesn't provide consistently good or even excellent results. It just doesn't seem to be able to churn out the trophy runs which look almost like a VOA. Those were the "elite" samples I was referring to. That Volvo sample looks good, very good even, but I can't honestly say that one belongs in the hall of fame next to the two Patman loves to cite. Leo, beats me. [I dont know] I don't know whether Australian M1 originates here in North America or whether your home-grown version is completely different. [Confused] The Tri-Syn SL available here had molybdenum (not sure about boron) and the results improved substantially. i also don't know how consistent the batches were while the formula and packaging were in transition. Then they seemed to have a few bad initial batches of SuperSyn which was lacking its barrier anti-wear altogether. Bobis got a sample of this oopsy goo and it made a mess of one of his Timken bearings. [Freak] But I think (hope) all that stuff is long gone from store shelves. [Razz] --- Bror Jace
 
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quote:
I'm not saying that SuperSyn doesn't provide consistently good or even excellent results. It just doesn't seem to be able to churn out the trophy runs which look almost like a VOA. Those were the "elite" samples I was referring to.
Thats fine, I just wasn't sure what specifically you meant my "elite". I'd be on board with you if we had more UOA's like the one's Patman posted. I know I come across as pro Mobil 1, but I really don't think it is the end all, be all oil. I do think it is one of the best and gets too much criticism. [Smile] [ June 07, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
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First of all, piston slap is often not a sign of wear but rather piston skirt loading and deformation. There is no oil in the world that will keep the skirt from deforming due to excessive loading. Short skirted pistons are highly loaded and often show 0.005 inches collapse at the end of their useful life, often without any significant signs of wear. Second, Mobil 1 15W-50 TriSyn had more additives and is the prefered oil for turbo use. 15W-50 was not formulated to meet the newer requirements. Chris
 

Leo

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Australia
Bror Jace, is the 'deficient' Tri-Syn only apply to the SJ formula? Cos we only have access to the SL Tri-Syn in Australia, and the SS will not come here any time soon. You're scaring me a bit, cos my car is a 300hp 2.0L Turbo (modified) and i want the best protection (at a reasonable price) you can get!!
 
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quote:
Thats fine, I just wasn't sure what specifically you meant my "elite". I'd be on board with you if we had more UOA's like the one's Patman posted. I know I come across as pro Mobil 1, but I really don't think it is the end all, be all oil. I do think it is one of the best and gets too much criticism. [Smile]
I'm not so sure that Mobil 1 gets criticized more than any other oil for which people have high expectations. Amsoil also gets routinely criticized on this board, and it appears to be an even better oil than Mobil 1. I think when expectations are high and the results don't come out blue chip each and every time, the criticisms will follow, fair or unfair. I use Valvoline Synpower and I have noticed that this oil gets labeled as an inferior synthetic and yet most of the UOA's of it have been very good, so go figure. I guess people will always have their biases. Whether Synpower is actually worse than Mobil 1, I don't know. In theory it should be because it is group III, but I haven't seen a bad Synpower analysis yet (granted there aren't that many), and the wear values, at least in VW engines, seem to be every bit as good as Mobil 1. I know that before I came to this board, I was pretty much going to use Mobil 1 in all our vehicles because just about every car junkie I knew had already annointed it as "the best." I guess in some ways, Mobil 1 gets unfair praise as well. [ June 08, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]
 
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Location
Melb, Aus
quote:
Originally posted by Leo: Bror Jace, is the 'deficient' Tri-Syn only apply to the SJ formula? Cos we only have access to the SL Tri-Syn in Australia, and the SS will not come here any time soon. You're scaring me a bit, cos my car is a 300hp 2.0L Turbo (modified) and i want the best protection (at a reasonable price) you can get!!
Leo, Use either Redline or the cheaper Motul 300v, both ester based oils. Both available here in Oz.
 
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" ... piston slap is often not a sign of wear but rather piston skirt loading and deformation. There is no oil in the world that will keep the skirt from deforming due to excessive loading. Short skirted pistons are highly loaded and often show 0.005 inches collapse at the end of their useful life, often without any significant signs of wear." Thanks Cujet, I didn't know that. Along the way, I had heard/assumed it was wear ... but then engines known for piston slap were not showing excessive aluminum in used oil analysis which I had seen. Your answer above explains that. [Smile] Still, the engines with bad cases of piston slap make an awful racket up here in the winter when running Mobil 1 Tri-Syn. Switching to a moly oil like Red Line or even Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle would quiet them down dramatically. I suspect Schaeffer offers the same enhanced protection 'cept my car had OTHER noises following serious engine work and I could not be sure of this. I had heard that 15W50 Tri-Syn still had higher metallic anti-wear additives but I never confirmed it. The other information cited still stands. I still believe Mobil 1 Tri-Syn's barrier protection fell well short of its hype. [Roll Eyes] --- Bror Jace
 
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Jupiter, Florida
Yes it sure looks like the TriSyn formula was not up to par. Too bad I did not have this information years ago. As for piston slap and M1, the Ford F150 5.4L engine is a classic example. Certain oils quiet it down and some make it worse. Mobil 1 TriSyn was one of those that did not hide the piston slap. I am not sure about the Supersyn. Interestingly enough, Ford has had to replace a number of engines due to piston slap. However on teardown most of the engines are within spec and show no abnormal wear. Maybe all that was needed was the right oil. Chris
 
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Yes, Ford indeed did replace some engines due to Piston slap since enough owners comlained about the noise. Funny thing is I know a few people with very high mileage slappers over 150,000 miles with no issues. It sure wasn't a durability problem, so it would appear. Folks I know have tried various oils, and short of going way heavy on grade (and losing fuel economy along with it), nothing made much of a difference. [I dont know]
 
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