Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

[weasley]

So I understand correctly that midsaps was really introduced mur because of the exhaust aftertreatment? Cars without particle filters would still be better served with a fullsaps?

Yes - lower SAPS oils were introduced to protect DPFs in passenger car diesels. GPFs came later but require largely the same thing in terms of protection from blockage.

 

[ChrisD46]

With my Hyundai Theta II 2.4L DI (non-turbo) engine my protocol to reduce IVD :

1. Top Tier Gas
2. CRC Intake Valve Cleaner ever other oil change (4K ~ 5K OCI)
3. Clean or replace PCV as needed
4. Switch to M1 5W30 D1 / Gen 3 oil (*may currently be the best base stock & add pack of the WM available off the shelf synthetic oils)

 

[sk_pete]

Yes - lower SAPS oils were introduced to protect DPFs in passenger car diesels. GPFs came later but require largely the same thing in terms of protection from blockage.

Chicken-egg problem.
If consumption is zero, why bother with saps level...
exhaust cat were in 90s too, suphur fuels and full saps back then. no mass complaints i remember.

Because modern engines are made with low pressure piston rings... aaaand here we go again

 

[TiGeo]

The answer is use what oil you want and just assume that at some point during ownership of a vehicle w/a GDI engine...you'll have a de-carbon'ing done. It's not like this is a huge expensive repair, they are typically ~$500 the price of paying a shop to do brakes etc.

 

[CarfriendXX]

I don't think that should be dramatised. There are several absolutely clean engines on the Internet which are and have been operated with Full saps mobil 1. Porsche and Mercedes rely on fullsaps not without reason until the start of the gasoline particle filter. Every advantage also has a disadvantage, I think I will continue to rely on fullsaps for my direct injection, because I think that the coking in particular depends on how well the oil separator and bland oil module works.

 

[kschachn]

I don't think that should be dramatised. There are several absolutely clean engines on the Internet which are and have been operated with Full saps mobil 1. Porsche and Mercedes rely on fullsaps not without reason until the start of the gasoline particle filter. Every advantage also has a disadvantage, I think I will continue to rely on fullsaps for my direct injection, because I think that the coking in particular depends on how well the oil separator and bland oil module works.

I wonder how the additive houses and the finished product blenders came to that conclusion then?

 

[I<3oil]

With my Hyundai Theta II 2.4L DI (non-turbo) engine my protocol to reduce IVD :

1. Top Tier Gas
2. CRC Intake Valve Cleaner ever other oil change (4K ~ 5K OCI)
3. Clean or replace PCV as needed
4. Switch to M1 5W30 D1 / Gen 3 oil (*may currently be the best base stock & add pack of the WM available off the shelf synthetic oils)

You already posted this last year: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...intake-valve-deposits-ivd.326281/post-5753893

 

[CarfriendXX]

I wonder how the additive houses and the finished product blenders came to that conclusion then?

What do you mean?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Why do all German manufacturers use fullsaps oils as long as possible and change to midsaps only when they have a particulate filter?

They don't.

BMW has been using C3 (LL04) in W. Europe for over a decade. In fact in W. Europe they all moved to C3 oils except for the Porsche 911.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So I understand correctly that midsaps was really introduced mur because of the exhaust aftertreatment? Cars without particle filters would still be better served with a fullsaps?

Yes and no. It was for (DPF) diesel and TWC (Three Way Catalyst) petrol. In order to preserve the lifespan of these components oils with lower ash were required because, especially at autobahn speeds, most cars burn some oil. Now in order to use oils with reduced SAPS the sulphur levels of diesel/gas had to be reduced to 10 ppm.

W. Europe transitioned to ULSG/ULSD around 2006 and have been using C3 oils ever since. The performance requirements for C3 are the same as A3/B4.

USA moved to ULSD around 2007 and ULSG around 2020-21.

Ironically VW USA has allowed 504.00 (C3) for petrol prior to 2020/21. I guess because of the much shorter interval of 1 y but some VW guys may know more.

Keep in mind I'm speaking of a handful of western European countries. At the time not all of Europe was on ULSG/SD and I have no idea if that's changed.

 

[Luftmasse]

I believe it was Porsche that needs to be full SAPS.

 

[CarfriendXX]

Porsche and Mercedes use on gasoline Engines only fullsaps until 2018.
No midsaps may be filled in the Porsche gt3 rs up to and including 2017, excluding Porsche A40. Only since 2018 with the gasoline particulate filter came the C40 standard and this midsaps engine oil.

The user manual of most Japanese also contains only fullsaps here in Europe in the European user manual until 2018.
My Civic Type r is from 2016, there only fullsaps Which i should use. 2018 the gasoline particle Filter will Come, then we should use ACEA C2/3 Engine oils in Europe. USA Modells can use A5/B5, too. This are 2023 Engines abd they should use fullsaps, no midsaps.

 

[buster]

I really think there is only so much an oil can do to mitigate the inherent design flaws of a GDI engine.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/01/gm-patents-innovative-new-integrated-oil-separator-assembly/

For the 2018> LGX & LGZ engines, GM has designed an oil separating baffle unit that sits on the top of the V6 between the cylinders, like where a pushrod cam shaft would be. The box has a check valve to prevent back flow.

A guy on the Colorado forums tested this system and it works extremely well.

 

[ChrisD46]

Interesting article in understanding low & mid SAPS oils : https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

 

[OVERKILL]

Chicken-egg problem.
If consumption is zero, why bother with saps level...
exhaust cat were in 90s too, suphur fuels and full saps back then. no mass complaints i remember.

Because modern engines are made with low pressure piston rings... aaaand here we go again

A GPF is far more sensitive to contamination than a catalyst. We were using low tension rings with catalysts, hell, my Jeep has low tension rings and catalysts, as did all the high performance HEMI's that originally spec'd a full SAPS Euro oil. BMW M cars spec'd full SAPS oils, and some of them even drank oil (pre 03/00 update S62 for example) and had catalysts.

The shift happened due to the implementation of DPF's, as noted, and GPF's. Of course what also happened was the shift to thinner oils, but the mid/low SAPS stuff came before that, and was alongside the DPF/GPF introduction.

 

[Miniguy]

Gohkan, I think I found something that I actually agree with you on 100%. IVD comes from inferior oils and/or poor maintenance, not from high SAPS. There's fleets of vehicles with GDI engines using high SAPS oils with 3000+ppm Ca and no IVD issues nor LSPI issues.

But what about cats issues in these fleets with high SAPS?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

But what about cats issues in these fleets with high SAPS?

Engines that do not burn oil do not suffer any cat issues related to high-SAPS oils. Only oil burners do…

 

[Miniguy]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Quote
The part about claiming low-SAPS reduces IVD over full-SAPS is flawed because they are comparing an inferior Euro III full-SAPS oil to a superior Euro IV low-SAPS oils. They are supposed to have a controlled experiment to make such a claim, in which they keep everything except SAPS constant.
Agree. Quite surprised they did that.
Proof?

Again, based upon what? What's this "inferior Euro 3"? Euro 4 oils are by definition lower SAPs no?

SonofJoe -- a retired oil blender from the UK -- blasted the Lubrizol study. Mike McCabe is the Lubrizol official who had made the presentation.

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
The blanket statement that high SAPS engine oils result in worse Inlet Valve Deposits on GDI engines is total and utter bollocks!!!! It may have been 11 years ago but even so, Mike McMabe should hang his head in shame for peddling such misleading and self-serving propaganda.

Okay, let's go back to 2006 when this presentation was issued. If you look at the maximum permitted Sulphated Ash levels for 'normal' ACEA oils, they appear very high ranging from 1.3% (for A1/B1) to 1.6% (for A3/B4). But these are MAXIMUM levels. There were no minimum ash levels and at the time nor were there any minimum TBN limits. The reality was that in 2006, the ash levels of these oils was no where near the maximum limits. At a rough guess, a typical European SL/CF/A3/B4/MB229.1/VW505 oil (that was sort of the typical market spec level) would have a TBN of 8-ish and an ash of 0.8-ish. In other words, ash-wise, these oils weren't a million miles from the ash specs of ACEA C2 & C3 low SAPS oils. Also, while Phosphorus wasn't explicitly limited for ACEA oils, most commercial oils had P levels of under 1000 ppm; so again, not a million miles from the 900 ppm max of most of the low SAPs grades.

Now let's look at A1/B1. A1/B1 was always something of a grudging nod by ACEA to what was happening in the US on fuel economy oils. Most of the big European OEMs didn't want it as they were still very much wedded to their 3.5 min HTHS limit, but people like Ford could see a place for 2.9 min HTHS oils in Europe. A1/B1 was US-like in other ways. It allowed oils with upto 15% Noack (vs 13% max for all other oils) so importantly it could be made from Group I/II oils. Secondly, unlike other ACEA oils, A1/B1 did not have to stay-in-grade on the KO30 shear test, meaning that it could use US-like high SSI VIIs. Thirdly, and critically, A1/B1 oils were allowed an easy ride on the Peugeot TU5 test.

There's one other relevant piece of the jigsaw to share. Whilst A1/B1 oils are notionally dual-use oils (ie for both gasoline & Diesel engines), the OEMs that plugged them did NOT recommend them for Diesel.

So now we get to this field trial that so convincingly 'demonstrated' that a Euro 3, OEM recommended, high SAPs oil gave far worse IVDs on a GDI engine than a Euro 4 low SAPs oil.

Now the presentation gives no details on what oils were compared but one might imagine a scenario where an AddCo, keen to capitalise on a new market opportunity, compares a high SAPs oil with a low SAPs oil. Obviously they want the trial to give the 'right' result that suits their commercial purposes. So what do they do? Might they compare an mineral-based, 5W30, nominally (but not really) high SAPs, A1/B1 oil (with its attendant high Noack) to a full synthetic (possibly PAO) low SAPs oil (with presumably a very low Noack). Given the mechanism by which valve deposits are formed, which do you think will demonstrate the better performance??? Well of course the low SAPs oil will so QED, high SAPs oil is bad m'kay?

Finally let's consider what Direct Gasoline Injection might have been used for this field trial. As I recall, there weren't that many around back then but one was about to be launched; the infamous Audi 2.0L TFSI engine. Yep. That one. The one that ate oil like it was going out of style. The one that suffered from obscene amounts of inlet valve deposits. The one that was subject to a class action lawsuit suit in the US. Do we still think it's right to blame high SAPs oil for causing IVD problems or might it possibly be that the engine itself was a dog??

Some folks really do need to stop treating every single thing they read on the internet as Gospel and mindlessly parroting messages that are simply not true.



SonOfJoe completely misses the point. (I know I wasn't going to comment but this comment from him is just silly).

My reply, It does not matter what the typical SAPS levels are of various A3/B4 oils. They fall somewhere within a standard and so what. In this case what does matter are the maximum levels allowed because by definition it delineates what is standard within the applicable ACEA specification. If you're not comparing standards then you can't draw a valid conclusion.

Engines that do not burn oil do not suffer any cat issues related to high-SAPS oils. Only oil burners do…

Yes I understand that but is it known how much oil can be consumed before any cat impairment is observed?

 

[sk_pete]

In 90s cars had cats and high saps. I don't remember mass complaints back then....
Suddenly today it's a problem....

 

[kschachn]

But what about cats issues in these fleets with high SAPS?

It would depend on the exact oil and the amount of phosphorus. A neighbor had a vehicle that consumed somewhere around 1 quart in 500 miles and using an HDEO it did trigger sporadic "catalyst efficiency" codes.