Does PAO content matter?

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n



Well once you can prove Redline which is a very small player in the game and really isn't pushing the envelope in the lubricant world is using primarly PAO and diester at least a few of your claims could be validated. But redline will not even publish what their 90% "various synthetic basestock" is.


Not long ago their MSDS showed something like 90% PAO.

All I find on its SDS is 90% various synthetic basestock. Then compairing it's 0W20 it PDS to Mobil Super syn they are similar down to VI.

 

[OVERKILL]

This is what they used to look like (September 2017, so still quite recent):

 

[emod]

Concerning SDS ^^ - In another thread, discussing Red Line oils, Tom NJ has pointed to something interesting about base oils they use, namely:

Originally Posted by Tom NJ

Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.

 

[burla]

About 13 years ago this forum was a glow when discussing various groups of oil, but we learned to live within the margins of what group 3 can do, and in fact embrace them. Now all we here is dexo's this, dexos that, sn this sn that, ilsac gf-5 this ilsac gf-6 a,b,c,d that, whatever. Now we talk about sn+, but shouldn't we call it sn-? Because it has a whole lot less in it then older more hearty oils. It will not take 13 years for the industry to embrace PAO again much more then it does now. It's use has been on the rise, the graph spells out why, and of course all of the "oil guys" wouldn't address the graph and link of facts from machinelube. The future of oil has much more use of those base oils under the umbrella of oil formulations. Manufacturers are fighting back against the sparce oils Ford and Ram Eco diesel notably but that is only a start. They have squeezed all of the performance they can out of group 3 oil, thus is why we are stuck at ilsac gf-5 for so long. Fuel economy and the nature of this gov't isn't going away, as they squeeze more the ONLY place for oil formulations to go is to the chart I thoughtfully looked up to show you why it matters. Look at how short the range of mineral oils is, we are at the edge of what is possible, and yet the gov't wants even less zddp, even thinner oil, less calcium, thinner thinner thinner. You think they will squeeze that out of group 3 oil?

The gov't of Japan has found out how to make a fortune, making it very hard to use an engine past 50k miles. Maybe out gov't is doing the same, every time a vehicle is sold they make 10%, I think they have a vested interest in not having long lasting vehicles on the road. The real reason why Obama had cash for clunkers, to take off great cars that can last forever off out roads. You see some manufacturers going to base oils to solve problems or challenges, the ram that heats the transmission mechanically moved to pao fluids, and Nissan at least did some research on esters for their issues. Other manu's going up in weight because of wide spread damage to bearings. You see the chart, why argue against that? PAO is a great base oil, and as it turns out can be made better by mixing esters. I have had it in my truck since 2010 and kept hemi tick away just by using that oil. It will solve a lot of problems that group 3 oils can't, fact not fiction.

 

[PimTac]

Japanese engines run well past 50k miles as do pretty much all engines.

Some of the comments here are really out there.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Japanese engines run well past 50k miles as do pretty much all engines.

Some of the comments here are really out there.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the mandatory inspection program in Japan (Shaken?) that functionally limits the long-term operation in that country. Repair shop visits are very expensive and meeting the ongoing inspection requirements becomes cost prohibitive.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by PimTac
Japanese engines run well past 50k miles as do pretty much all engines.

Some of the comments here are really out there.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the mandatory inspection program in Japan (Shaken?) that functionally limits the long-term operation in that country. Repair shop visits are very expensive and meeting the ongoing inspection requirements becomes cost prohibitive.




It is still a Apples and oranges comparison. Japan is very strict about safe vehicles on the road. It's also a big reason why most households do not own a car there. Of course they have a super efficient transportation system.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by PimTac
Japanese engines run well past 50k miles as do pretty much all engines.

Some of the comments here are really out there.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the mandatory inspection program in Japan (Shaken?) that functionally limits the long-term operation in that country. Repair shop visits are very expensive and meeting the ongoing inspection requirements becomes cost prohibitive.


Yeah wow, thought this was common knowledge, I guess not.

 

[burla]

once again we are disusing my thoughts as being way out there, AS OPPOSED TO DISCUSSING THE GRAPH, lol. Bob's is a real ish show sometimes. The OP wants to know about pao, but if my ideas are way out there you can judge for yourself, and consider Japan sells mostly japanese cars and takes 5% off the sale of the vehicle. Windfall for Japan gov't, shaken below... You think the US gov't wouldn't mind getting more tax dollars from a big ticket item like a vehicle? huh

Shaken

Many people come to Japan and are very surprised that all the cars are clean, well maintained, and always running efficiently. The sensitive Japan "experts" will tell you that it's because Japanese take such pride in their work, have such dignity to drive cars that only look like new, etc. All of which are true. But the real reason is different, and you'll pay dearly for it. Cars that are 3 years old have to have a mandatory maintenance check (Shaken), which is repeated every other year. The costs again vary according to the size of the car, but basically you'll be paying 120,000-160,000 yen or so for a smaller car, and more for a larger. Also, when the car is very old, it has an official value of zero and you may actually have to pay someone to take it off your hands! After that it'll be either scrapped or sold to dealers in Asia.

 

[PimTac]

This just reaffirms why I put you on ignore way back when. Got something in your craw?

 

[burla]

you win, and for someone who is on your ignore you sure talk a lot about me as a person and not the information I brought forward. Once again, not a discussion ABOUT THE GRAPH. Here would be an appropriate and accurate discussion about pao from an "oil guy", he man it is great stuff and the future of the industry, boom. Man, thread closed thanks for the great and insightful info on the subject. I pretty sure I can't advance the conversation point past that as it seams like folks want to go in another direction. To OP I encourage you to view the machinelube link, and maybe consider that as a resource of factual information and first stop if you would like to know more about pao.

 

[dave1251]

This thread was something else.

 

[ChemLabNL]

Other than extreme temperature performance, saturated base oils SUCK!

 

[DirectRejection]

I put the big four into two camps.

--Castrol/Valvoline...basic hydrocracked group III base stock...add pack is emphasized.

--Pennzoil/Mobil 1...base stock is the star...GTL/PAO.

It would be interesting which style is the preference of BITOGers, and why.
Say in a 2.0L 4cyl TGDI engine, which is becoming the norm.

 

[madeej11]

We're all very elated that you " thoughtfully" pulled up that chart for us burla. Talk about tooting your own horn! Don't do us any favors, please.

 

[SonofJoe]

I know an awful lot about base oils, I really do, & I can put my hand on heart & say that chart is a complete load of bollocks!!

Mineral oils, & especially Group III's, do not cease to function above 260F (127C). Any Group III oil will sail through the Sequence IIIG engine test which runs flat out for 100 hours with a bulk oil temp of 150C (302C). The oil won't even break sweat.

There aren't any internal combustion engine tests that I know of that go any hotter than 150C but some of the French OEM specs call for lab glass wear tests that maintains the oil in a highly oxidative environment for several days at 170C (338F) and Group III-based oil eat this test for breakfast.

Is PAO better than Group III? Yes in absolute terms, but it also costs about four times as much as Group III. I'm guessing that with a bit if tweaking, I could run my car on a diet of the finest single malt Scotch if I so chose. However, like most other rational people I choose to run it on unleaded petrol because it's cheaper to do it that way!

 

[Speak2Mountain]

Mah great great grand dad ran a 1921 Ford on whale blubber and lamp oil. He didn't have no fantcee-dantcee PAO's and Esters. Just run your MB/BMW/ Lexus on Dollar General or Fred's oils and pocket the savings...cuz that's what it ALL about saving a few pennies.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.

Exactly. For guys running 3000 miles on something calling for ordinary 5w-30, the last thing they really need is a PAO oil.




How many millions of miles have been run in just conventional oils. Too many to count I think. Most vehicles do not have special oil specs. Just run the prescribed grade and go. PAO is great stuff but let�s not get obsessed over it.


This grouping of quotes hits the nail on the head.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by madeej11
...Talk about tooting your own horn! Don't do us any favors, please.


There's a lot of that going on lately.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Speak2Mountain
Mah great great grand dad ran a 1921 Ford on whale blubber and lamp oil. He didn't have no fantcee-dantcee PAO's and Esters. Just run your MB/BMW/ Lexus on Dollar General or Fred's oils and pocket the savings...cuz that's what it ALL about saving a few pennies.



What is your purpose with this post?