Direct versus consumption taxation.

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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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The richest people in this country already account for almost all of the tax revenue collected.


That's accurate and also misleading. The highest wage earners in the highest brackets also tend to have substantial income that is deferred or what falls outside of income tax. It's "owned" income vs. "earned" income.

The majority of the taxpaying population only gets to move 15% of their income and offer it to the market to be milked and harvested for their future retirement, while any top level executive will have several magnitudes times his "earned" income sequestered from taxation.


I pay taxes, yet I also get tax brakes the common person doesn't. I can purchase goods on the installation tax free. My child care on base is tax free. When I am assigned to a combat zone, it's tax free. My Base Allowance for Housing is tax free, as is my allowance for Substinence etc.
Regardless, let me put it a different way and see if you concur:

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.

# In 2002 the latest year of available data (at the time of this study), the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

# The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.

# Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.

Treasury Department analysts credit President Bush's tax cuts with shifting a larger share of the individual income taxes paid to higher income taxpayers. In 2005, says the Treasury, when most of the tax cut provisions are fully in effect (e.g., lower tax rates, the $1,000 child credit, marriage penalty relief), the projected tax share for lower-income taxpayers will fall, while the tax share for higher-income taxpayers will rise.

# The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers will fall from 4.1 percent to 3.6 percent.

# The share of taxes paid by the top 1 percent of taxpayers will rise from 32.3 percent to 33.7 percent.

# The average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers falls by 27 percent as compared to a 13 percent decline for taxpayers in the top 1 percent.


Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis
 
..and any of that has what to do with what I said
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I've always figured there was less cheating getting folks at consumption time... Walmart for example would keep clean books because they're big and they know the gov't is watching.

As far as income... pay your babysitter, tip your waitress, hire someone to pick lettucce... that probably goes underreported.

Yes if there's a national sales tax the people who make cookies for bake sales, adirondack chairs for sale on the side of the road will probably cheat, but I figure, much less...

Also a fan of an energy consumption tax perhaps above the sales tax... stuff should be expensive until we can feel better about how we're getting it and using it (up).
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..and any of that has what to do with what I said
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You said my comment was misleading. So I thought I would offer more in depth statistics on who pays the taxes in the U.S.

If someone in the top 1%, the group which pays almost 34% of all taxes, gets extra tax breaks, then I don't care. He or she is already doing their part by contributing more in a year than most of us will in a lifetime. I have more sympathy for them, then I do for the near 40% of the leeching U.S. population.

As I have said, I support 1 flat tax across the board on goods and services for everyone. Flat tax on everything from pencils, to diapers, to Jack Daniels, to automobiles etc. I do not believe the current system of progressive tax rates to be fair, nor reasonable.

The rich already pay their way, along with the way of many others. They don't owe anyone anything, anymore than I do.
 
Originally Posted By: SinisterK9
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..and any of that has what to do with what I said
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You said my comment was misleading.


No ..untrue or half true..

What I said was

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That's accurate and also misleading.


As you've proven ..you assertion is accurate ..and if you care to deal with my objections to that view, you'll see that it's also disingenuous at depicting how many upper tier earners pay a very small percentage of their compensation under the income tax umbrella.

All costs are paid by producers. What you cited statistics doesn't mention is the loss of revenue sharing that was the product of the federal government taking a small cut and returning it to the states. So now the local and state taxation is growing at higher rates.

It's the "contract on America" done in a different manner. Since we didn't willing accept the local and state corruption that we would blame for our ills ..it just occurred by default.

So as my school district gets less money ..my police dept ..my water and sewer authority ..all cascading downward the individual pays more fees and taxes elsewhere ...whether or not they're paying high FIT.

It's just a switching of toll collectors.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Well, I will give you two examples from here.

Texas has no state income tax, but the sales tax is 8.5%

Wisconsin does have state income tax, but the sales tax is 5%

I lived in Texas for 40 years and now I live in Wisconsin. I much prefer the Texas way.

I am pretty much on a fixed income now and would rather pay my taxes as I spend, rather than have to fill out a multiple page form every year and write them a check.



California, state income tax (high) and an 8.25% sales tax. Love it?
The same politicians keep getting reelected so the taxes must be fine with the majority of tax payers.
 
"Taxes are the root of all evil. No tax is the best tax."

We're in Washington across the river from Portland, OR and over years have had a lot of people with kids move here because the schools are pretty good, and tend to be a noticable contrast with a lot of schools in Oregon. We also benefit from a number of companies in the area. But, it's still amazing to hear people say that they moved because of the schools, but they don't like the property taxes and vote against all school bonds :^)

I've overheard people telling them to please go back where they came from, to the mess they created that they're trying to escape from.
 
Valid point. It takes money for all of our govt-provided services. No one has paid attention to the fact that I work for the federal govt but am complaining about taxes.
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Originally Posted By: Steve S
Taxes are the root of all evil. No tax is the best tax.


There are a few countries waiting for you Steve, no taxes and no government interference in your life. Most of them are non-functional countries in Africa, but that's where you need to go to get away from taxes.
 
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But, it's still amazing to hear people say that they moved because of the schools, but they don't like the property taxes and vote against all school bonds :^)

I've overheard people telling them to please go back where they came from, to the mess they created that they're trying to escape from.


Whether it's upscale or otherwise, the migrating herd brings all the problems with them. Now the suburbanites are looking for affordable housing where appropriate housing in the immediate vicinity of their upscale job would be two to four times as much ..and all the traffic and whatnot ..come out to the clean country.....riiiiiiiiight and lower taxes ..less crime..newer construction. Next thing you know the school is too small the road are jammed and the taxes are high.

It's the same in our little hamlet on the fringe of the county. The inner city Phila relatives send us "Fresh Princes of Pottstown" ..and they bring all the liabilities that they had in the inner city with them. That and the local critter/mutant count on the upswing .....
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Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Valid point. It takes money for all of our govt-provided services. No one has paid attention to the fact that I work for the federal govt but am complaining about taxes.
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Oh, it hasn't gone unnoticed ..you've been give a group pass.
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No one gets out alive, pal
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Well, comically so, you could be one of the few who could actually be an instrument in his own demise. If you get your wish ..you might be the cost cut from the equation.
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I consider myself my own victim. I WANT well funded stuff and I'm willing to pay for it. Getting others to carry their weight is a very hard plan to sell. I like good roads, I like good schools ..safe bridges ..etc...etc..etc.

I'd pay more if I got what I wanted ..but what everyone seems to struggle to obtain ..and they achieve it (as we can clearly see) is incredibly high costs ..and incredibly dysfunctional systems. They then argue about how to get out of dealing with both.
 
Yes, it's easier to be taxed when you can see what your tax dollars are going toward. It's when they disappear down a black hole that people become jaded.

For instance, bet you didn't know in the budget just after Katrina hit, the Louisiana legislature allocated $45 million for new sporting and livestock facilities, including $2 million for a facility to be used for "goat shows and lawn mower races."

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One side argues that the less direct tax, the more there is to spend, the other that cheaper apparent prices mean mores spending.

I tend to agree with the latter, short term.
If this applies to businesses as well, then the companies will have less capital to invest which will shrink their operations resulting in less employment resulting in less money to spend...

This is most likely what we are going to be seeing here in this country in the hopes of "creating jobs."
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Higher taxes on the wealthy (you know, the people that CAN start businesses to expand the economy) always start new businesses so more of their earned money can be taken from them at a higher rate...
Always works.
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A consumption tax works in favor of the thrifty person who doesn't mind or who even prefers a frugal lifestyle. If the majority of people is a bunch of coupon-clipping misers, such a system may not bring in the required revenues. See the BITOG Cheapskate thread...
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
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may not bring in the required revenues

Defining "required" is the real trick then.


Right, you don't live in a society.
 
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wealthy (you know, the people that CAN start businesses to expand the economy) always start new businesses so more of their earned money can be taken from them at a higher rate...



Wealthy people don't build businesses for any other reason than there is a demand for the service/product. If they don't see sense in it ..they don't do it.

You, of all people, should realize that if $0.10 is all that can be squeezed from a product/service whatever...there is ALWAYS someone to capitalize on it. If the wealthy that you idolize and worship as your savior are disinclined to do so, the world will exist without their participation. They can sit upon their laurels and not make money hand over fist to make it "worth their time".

Let them go idle and do nothing.

I always pay a premium for the right to have someone advantage participate in my lower dwelling activity.

"Pretty please come and grace us with your presence??"
 
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