Defending Castrol?????????????????
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Why doesn't ExxonMobil, that big, bad, greedy oil compamy, just make a synthetic oil from GIII and charge what they're charging for M1 and increase the bottom line?
Exactly. The commonplace definition of synthesis being a fusion of seperate componets lost out in favour of technical definition of isomerization, Castrol's position. We on the forum tend to embrace the commonplace definition, probally from exposure to it. Possibly we favour Mobil because of that. All this seems to have helped out the consumer's understanding.
This case avoided obscure word relations and centered on common usage in the here and now. Your side, Audi Junkie, the mighty Mobil "Goliath", had its chance against the Castrol "David" (and "lost", or did it?... - Mobil moved on [they make or license the production of, by way of their patents, a LOT of Group III base lube stock, and they're crying all the way to the bank with this arrangement] In a sense, ExxonMobil's the real cynic in this farce since the company merrily plays both sides against the middle.
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[ August 15, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
[ August 15, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Merriam Webster not "Miriam" defines synthetic as produced artificially esp. by chemical means: also not genuine.
Merriam Webster also defines artificially as produced by art rather than nature.
If Merriam Webster set standards for motor oils than Group 1 and Group II base oils could be also be called "synthetic" because they are not as they came from the ground. Maybe there is a good reason Merriam Webster was not called to testify.
Not true, the facts are the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Petroleum Institute (API) both have technical standards covering motor oils, and both of these organizations in the '90's backed away from their old definitions of "synthetic," leaving lots of room for new interpretations.
Castrol called a Group III base stock a synthetic around 1997 BEFORE National Advertising Division (NAD) ruled on the case. IMO A bait and switch at its best if you ask me. Castrol sold around $2.00 - $2.50 a qt oil for $5.00 at the time. Castrol, API, and SAE opened a door that should have not been opened IMO. Castrol did nothing illegal, more like immoral they lowered their standards for money IMO. They simply read the rule book just like a racer reads a rule book. If there is a door open a racer will take it to win at all cost. Problem is Castrols "customers" are not the competition.
Hail to those that know the truth.
Group 4/5 are physically superior to group III.
Cleanliness, Sludge Resistance, and high and low temp operation chief contendars.
If Castrol Syntec Group III was SOOOOO superior?
The Mercedes Benz, Porshe, Ford and GM would not write FACTORY FILL MOBIL 1 on the engine name plate.
Even the auto makers and there engineers know what happened. They are just gagged by the white collars from opening there mouth.
Case close in my opinion.
Do not run Syntec and delude yourself into thinking its a genuine syn like M1, RL, AMSOIL, RP, Synergyn, etc.
Group 4/5 are physically superior to group III.
Cleanliness, Sludge Resistance, and high and low temp operation chief contendars.
If Castrol Syntec Group III was SOOOOO superior?
The Mercedes Benz, Porshe, Ford and GM would not write FACTORY FILL MOBIL 1 on the engine name plate.
Even the auto makers and there engineers know what happened. They are just gagged by the white collars from opening there mouth.
Case close in my opinion.
Do not run Syntec and delude yourself into thinking its a genuine syn like M1, RL, AMSOIL, RP, Synergyn, etc.
This is a great thread, but haven't we lost sight of the key point here?
I'd like to buy "oil that will work properly in your engine, protecting it from wear and corrosion, and lasting a long time". Oils that do that can be blended successfully from Gr. III, Gr. IV and Gr. V base stocks and additives.
This is precisely why VW, DC, BMW and others have put new specs for "LongLife" or whatever into the market - that's how a user can tell if he or she is getting what I quoted above.
Those of us with degrees in the physical sciences like to understand how things work, and we tend to lock onto "it's made this way, so it must work that way", and be remarkably resistant to change until we've been hammered over the head a number of times with the facts. That's why some people think that PAO is a better base than POE, or vice-versa, when in fact it's what the final blend does in the engine that really matters.
THERE - that should keep this thread rolling!
Cheers
JJ
I'd like to buy "oil that will work properly in your engine, protecting it from wear and corrosion, and lasting a long time". Oils that do that can be blended successfully from Gr. III, Gr. IV and Gr. V base stocks and additives.
This is precisely why VW, DC, BMW and others have put new specs for "LongLife" or whatever into the market - that's how a user can tell if he or she is getting what I quoted above.
Those of us with degrees in the physical sciences like to understand how things work, and we tend to lock onto "it's made this way, so it must work that way", and be remarkably resistant to change until we've been hammered over the head a number of times with the facts. That's why some people think that PAO is a better base than POE, or vice-versa, when in fact it's what the final blend does in the engine that really matters.
THERE - that should keep this thread rolling!
Cheers
JJ
OK, Mobil may be the largest producer of G-III base oils for all I know. That's fine. At least they aren't pawning them off on the public at large (and what %-age of the American public has a degree in chemistry???) as being something more than they really are. Ray, I recognize and defer to your professional knowledge, but I don't think that it really answers this question. Ignorance of the law may be no excuse, but I'm thinking that ignorance of chemistry actually is. . . I don't think that your average Joe who knows just enough that he wants (or thinks he wants) a synthetic oil expects to get what's inside most Syntec bottles (excluding of course GC and BC), regardless of how good it may or may not be.quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
This case avoided obscure word relations and centered on common usage in the here and now. Your side, Audi Junkie, the mighty Mobil "Goliath", had its chance against the Castrol "David" (and "lost", or did it?... - Mobil moved on [they make or license the production of, by way of their patents, a LOT of Group III base lube stock, and they're crying all the way to the bank with this arrangement] In a sense, ExxonMobil's the real cynic in this farce since the company merrily plays both sides against the middle.).
JJ -- I would agree 110% if Castrol was not specifically saying that Syntec is something that it's not (at least in my opinion). Hey, if it turns out that skunk butt oil is a perfect PCMO, I'll be the first to buy an honestly labeled bottle of it and use it.
outrun:
What is your position of GC and BC?
Group at Large:
Given what a majority in this thread think about Castrol, wouldn't this also mean that McDonald's (to name but one) should also be taken to task for misleading the public about the nutrition of their food?
What is your position of GC and BC?
Group at Large:
Given what a majority in this thread think about Castrol, wouldn't this also mean that McDonald's (to name but one) should also be taken to task for misleading the public about the nutrition of their food?
"Skunk butt oil" (actually secreted and sprayed by a muscle-wrapped gland at the base of the animal's tail) is an ester*, so you might be on solid ground... I would just hope those using such a concoction would have the courtesy to do so downwind of their neighbors.
*esters are the byproduct when certain acids react with an alcohol. NOT polymerization of smaller moledules into larger ones, yet esters are said to be SYNTHESIZED. Golly, the unmitigated nerve of those stupid chemists! (They all really ought to be taken out and shot for that unforgivable breach of ethics and honesty...)
[ August 15, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Ray:
1) Maybe we should look into marketing SBO. But no matter how good it turns out to be, we're not going to be able to match GC for the sweet gummy bear smell factor. . .
2) You chemists are NOT unethical or dishonest. As a lawyer, I find myself having to remember that "normal people" (everyone else) despise the jargon that we throw around with such ease (they should -- we should speak english). Ironically, the same concept applies to you potion peddlers. You have to account for the fact that even those of us who care and want to keep up are not going to be on the same footing as you guys in the chemolinguistics* department.
* Does this entitle me to the "Cool New Word of the Day" award???
That's nice if you are in a bragging competition about what's in my beaker vs what's in your beaker...but what does that mean in terms of application in an terrestrial I-C-E? Where is the physical evidence that "synthesized" synthetics are vastly superior in this chosen task? used oil analysis?
I notice everyone is amazingly silent when it comes to the fact that Castrol is sellng SLX in the US for less than $5.00 a quart when it sells in Europe, so I hear, for up to $20 a liter ( quite generous to us North Americans wouldn't you say?). I know some will say, well they couldn't sell it in Europe so they are dumping it here...if so, why are they making new batches? Why didn't they sell off the inventory and then quit? The oil might hardly even have gotten notice. I respect those of you who GENUINELY have issues of principle with this subject, but can you look me in the monitor and tell me your principle is based on the clear facts you possess pointing out Castrol's uneqivocal evil in this matter? It is one thing to base "What is your favorite engine oil" purely on opinion; it is quite another when you accuse someone (even if it is a corporate someone) of all sorts of evil, if you are not in possession of facts clearly pointing to that verdict.
PSCHOLTE, GC is not widely abvailable!! I still can not find it and I look for it every payday! So twice a month I have been looking for it sinceit first hit bobistheoilguy. When ever I go into town for anything I look for it! I am not going to drive to Canada just to buy oil! But you can find their price gougeing group III syntec everywhere!!!!!!!!!!
I think that the fact that they sell one legitimate synthetic oil in the USA with very spotty distribution is not that impressive. I think it is a shame that they do not but a true synthetic in every bottle of $4.75-$4.99 a quart bottle of syntec. It is crazy that you have to look at were the product is made, check batch numbers, smell it and compare the color to know if you are getting the good stuff or the domestic junk!!!!
I am pretty sure Mobil 1 would be takeing some heat right now if you had to do all of the above before you bought it!!
I still have not gotten a good answere from anyone why they would want to pay $4.75-$4.99 a quart to equal the short term performance of M1 at $3.88 a quart!
I hope we can convince 3MadPanco's to test Syntec 5W30 or 10W30 in a long term test!! I would love to see how it does in a well documented engine.
I do not include GC when discussing Castrol Syntec. I always use GC when refering to GC. I would actualy like to try GC if it ever becomes available here!
If you asked me to sell you some gold and I sold you lead instead at the same price as gold I am sure you would be upset. Lead is much closer to gold then GIII is to PAO and Esters!
I think that the fact that they sell one legitimate synthetic oil in the USA with very spotty distribution is not that impressive. I think it is a shame that they do not but a true synthetic in every bottle of $4.75-$4.99 a quart bottle of syntec. It is crazy that you have to look at were the product is made, check batch numbers, smell it and compare the color to know if you are getting the good stuff or the domestic junk!!!!
I am pretty sure Mobil 1 would be takeing some heat right now if you had to do all of the above before you bought it!!
I still have not gotten a good answere from anyone why they would want to pay $4.75-$4.99 a quart to equal the short term performance of M1 at $3.88 a quart!
I hope we can convince 3MadPanco's to test Syntec 5W30 or 10W30 in a long term test!! I would love to see how it does in a well documented engine.
I do not include GC when discussing Castrol Syntec. I always use GC when refering to GC. I would actualy like to try GC if it ever becomes available here!
If you asked me to sell you some gold and I sold you lead instead at the same price as gold I am sure you would be upset. Lead is much closer to gold then GIII is to PAO and Esters!
Castrol by it's definition got away in court and is selling Castrol Syntec as it is. Others have followed. Does Syntec perform any better than synthetic oil in a given situation and it propably does in it's limitation. Hey your the consumer why the beef...if you know your oil buy what is offered what the market offers. No one is telling you to like Castrol or to buy it's product..It's your choice...your vehicle..my 2cent..
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