Defending Castrol?????????????????

[Johnny]

Of all the folks on this board, I can't believe I am the one that is going try and defend Castrol's position on their Group III synthetics. So here goes.

We have all heard the arguments about what is or is not synthetic, and we all have our different opinions on this. Let me try to clear something up about Castrol. Castrol has never had a refinery here in the USA. When they were using PAO as their base, they were buying it from Mobil, and they were getting fleeced on price. So they turned to two oil companies for a synthetic like base stock. Petro Canada and Shell. Up until 6 years ago, Castrol did not have a blending plant in the USA and Petro Canada and others blended and packaged the Castrol Syntec and their GTX line of oils. When Castrol purchased Dryden Oil they gained access to several blending plants, and when BP purchased them, they gained access to more. They now blend their oils but they still get their Group III base stocks from Petro Canada and Shell, depending on what part of the country your in.

It was a cost factor. It cost a lot more to sell oil when you do not have any control over the process, except the marketing of the product.

It's still a very good product.

 

[like a rock]

Very good unbiased thoughts. Castrol really takes a bad rap because they are not shy about taking chances. I have used syntec and yes it is a very good oil for medium drains not long drains like mobil one or amsoil. Where does penzoil get the additives for their line of oils?
From shell of another company? And what about Castrol. Do they use base oil and additives from BP? I read on a Chevron site that Castrol and one time purchased base oil from them.

 

[Johnny]

Pennzoil's additives come from two sources. Shell Chemical and Ornite (the chemical division of Chevron). Shell has an exchange with Chevron where Chevron supplies our Group II+ and Group III base stocks on the west coast, and Shell supplies the Group II+ and Group III base stocks for Chevron on the east coast. Cuts down on cost of shipping base stocks all over the country. Both companies blend their own products though.

I would not doubt that Castrol got some Group III from Chevron on the west cost. I'm not sure about this, but I think Castrol uses Lubrizoil and Ethyl additives.

 

[glxpassat]

If the pertrolium authorities declare group III is synthetic oil, then I can't see where Castrol has done anything wrong. They are certainly not guilty of false advertising.

I think what people are really upset about is they believe Castrol should have lowered the price. But if they were not making a profit with pao base oils then it wouldn't make sense for them to decrease the price after switching to group III.

 

[Blue99]

Johnny - Thanks for providing the info based on your inside experience.

The slight amount of negativity I associate with Castrol is due to the suit & resulting confusion generated by the meaning of the term "synthetic oil".

I can pick up a bottle of Aspirin/Pain Reliver and read the label to identify the contents as Ibuprofen, Acetaminophen, etc. I can't do the same with a bottle of "synthetic" oil.

Price is a slightly different issue. To me, it seems the retail price, of the non-PAO synthetics, is established based on marketing issues, rather than a cost plus standard profit margin basis.

So, while I'm not down on Castrol & think the products are good, these two issues always pop into my mind whenever I look at a bottle of Syntec or even GTX.

 

[pscholte]

Johnny,

I want to personally thank you for your honesty, integrity and professional ethics as indicated by your willingess to set the story straight on a competitor. For at least 9 months or more and in many posts I have asked people, "But what aspect of Castrol's supposed 'fleecing of the public' might you not know and in fact they are not doing that at all?" (for those that are saying, "yeah right," go ahead and check my posts on this subject) I don't recall ANYONE stepping up to that challenge UNTIL NOW. I applaud you for doing the right thing. I am disappointed that it took this long for someone to break the uninformed group think mentality that sometimes prevails here, but I am thankful that you had the courage to do it. May Pennzoil and Castrol be successful as long as there are engines that need their products!

 

[novadude]

Very informative, Johnny. Thanks!

 

[dropitby]

Good thread since I am a long time user of Castrol Syntec I can't comment on if they did anything wrong. If you look at Mobil 1 it says Full Synthetic on the front. Same with Valvoline Syn Power. Havoline just says Synthetic so I guess if it has a PAO or whatever it is Full synthetic.The question to me is the UOA's after say 5000 mi.which are better which have better wear #ers. Higher TBN etc. I just got back from Wallys Syntec is $20.93 for 5 qts. Syn Power $19.87 5qts. Mobil 1 I think $23 so there all about the same in price which give you the best report.

 

[Ugly3]

Let's get a few things straight right off the bat.

The price of everything is set by the market not the cost. If you could figure out how to make synthetic oil for $0.12 per quart what price would you sell it for?

Why do you think Nike shoes sell for $100 when we all know they cost maybe $12 to make?

The answer to both questions is "the market".

You test you cost against the market price to determine if you are willing to participate in the market. If there is enough margin you are "in". If your costs do not provide enough margin you are "out".

Selling price is based on how the customer thinks your product performs. Part is marketing (Volvo is the safest car, Fram's pay me now or pay me later, etc.), part is real performance.

Most people go to the local quick lube joint and say "give me whatever my car takes" and drives home happy. A few people use what their Granddad and Dad used, "if it was good enough for them it is good enough for me".

Then there are the "gearheads" who debate every aspect of an oil or filter till the cows come home and then use what they feel is best.

Look at the long term synthetic oil study being done on this site. Mobil 1 has run 18,000 miles witha filter change at 12,000 miles. Amsoil has run 10,000 with no filter change and is still going strong.

I would love to Castrol synthetic get tested next.

At least we would have some information on performance and we could forget about the manufacturing process.

 

[Jay]

Johnny, your "defense" of Castrol misses the point entirely.

This is the point:

If you ask any person on the street if he or she has heard the term "synthetic" oil, 9 out of 10 people will reply, "yes". Ask any of them which is higher-quality oil and most will reply, "synthetic". To get this level of visibility about a product requires years of expensive advertising and promotion. Mobil probably spent more money developing, promoting, and advertising synthetic oils than any other oil maker.

Castrol dishonestly hi-jacked the term "synthetic" and applied it to a product that isn't synthetic. We can argue till the cows come home that it's close to synthetic, or just as good, blah, blah...
but it's not synthetic.

If Cool Whip advertised their product as whipped cream and priced it right next door to whipped cream the FTC and probably a few more agencies would demand they stop...and rightly so. It's not whipped cream.

When Castrol called their group III oil product, "synthetic", they effectively stole millions of dollars of advertising from the true makers of synthetic oil products. If it's "just as good as "synthetic"... fine. Label the product as "group III" then spend millions of dollars in advertising and promotion to educate the public that group III is just as good. Then let the public decide. But don't lie about what you sell.

The effect of Castrol's victory over Mobil over the use of the term synthetic had predictable consequences. Real synthetic oil almost disappeared from the store shelves.

I, for one, don't think group III basestocks are as good as group IV and V basestocks, nor do I think that finished oils made from group III should cost as much as real synthetics. If the FTC were doing their job they would require all oilmakers to tell consumers what basestocks they're using in what proportions and the word "synthetic" could only be used for group IV and V.

 

[buster]

Some even argue that Group V is the only real synthethic base stock.

Castrol makes good oils IMO. GTX, GC and even their regular Syntec do well for the most part.

The main reason why Mobil 1 is such great oil for the money is because XOM makes their own additives and basestocks. Mobil 1 is the flagship product of Mobil.

I have nothing against Castrol but I don't think Group III is a synthetic at all. It's all about reducing costs and Castrol did exactly that and in turn lowered the quality of the oil but kept the Synthetic label. Thats not right IMO.

 

[Ugly3]

Jay - I, for one, don't think group III basestocks are as good as group IV and V basestocks, nor do I think that finished oils made from group III should cost as much as real synthetics.

Where is the data? If the finished product meets the specs set for synthetic oil why do you think it is not as good? Maybe 40 Used Oil Analysis Reports could clear up this matter.

As to cost. It is possible that the process used by Castrol costs more than the PAO makers. I sure don't know and I don't care too much either.

Performance is what counts, not the base stocks, not the marketing, not the manufacturing process, and sure not the inuendo of morality.

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Jay - I, for one, don't think group III basestocks are as good as group IV and V basestocks, nor do I think that finished oils made from group III should cost as much as real synthetics.

Where is the data? If the finished product meets the specs set for synthetic oil why do you think it is not as good? Maybe 40 Used Oil Analysis Reports could clear up this matter.

As to cost. It is possible that the process used by Castrol costs more than the PAO makers. I sure don't know and I don't care too much either.

Performance is what counts, not the base stocks, not the marketing, not the manufacturing process, and sure not the inuendo of morality.

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Ugly,
I share you viewpoint as well. In fact, I read an article by Henderson, Steckle, and Swinney of Petro Canada (SAE Technical Paper series 2000-01-2920) which indicated that many finished products made with Group III performed as well or better than PAO products in sub-12,500 mile drains. Since I only care about performance and I don't do extended drains, I have no issues with Group IIIs.

Having said that, I do see the other side of the argument. Some people have definite ideas of what synthetics mean. If it ain't group IV or V, it ain't synthetic, regardless of performance. It's like that fake crab they sell at super markets. No matter how good they make it taste, it's not crab. A psychological peace of mind does have value.

 

[yannis]

If a company like Castrol can't produce a PAO synthetic of their own ,they don't diserve to be in the synthetic market . I suppose that's the reason they were bought by BP.
If you can't make your own guns and you are depending on the enemy you can't win the war.

[ August 14, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: yannis ]

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:

...Where is the data? If the finished product meets the specs set for synthetic oil why do you think it is not as good? Maybe 40 Used Oil Analysis Reports could clear up this matter...

---

I don't need any data. Just as I don't need any data to say that margarine shouldn't be labelled as butter. Group III basestocks are not made by a process of synthesis and are therefore not synthetic. That simple fact just doesn't go away in this discussion.

What's wrong with labeling Castrol "Syntec" as group III and letting the consumer decide which is better?

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Performance is what counts, not the base stocks, not the marketing, not the manufacturing process, and sure not the inuendo of morality.

---

This is yet another form of the ages old "the ends justify the means" position. The thing I really don't get in this context is this: we all seem to agree that it's wrong for individuals to lie to one another, especially when lying is done to further personal or political gain. If you don't agree, just pop over to the "General and Off Topic" forum and run a search on Bill Clinton or John Kerry. On the other hand, a surprising number of people obviously see no problem when individuals working for a corporation lie boldly in the name of increasing profits. I imagine that from your use of the term "innuendo of morality" you think it's perfectly OK for someone to lie at will so long as they do so in their capacity as a corporate employee and it improves the bottom line?

Consider this hypothetical: your next door neighbor works for Castrol. He borrows a tool from you and lies about his intent to return it to you. He then puts a tie on, goes to work, and lies to you about what's in the oil his company just sold you. I respectfully challenge you to make a principled distinction between these two situations.

 

[newtoncd8]

What's wrong with labeling Castrol "Syntec" as group III and letting the consumer decide which is better?


Because the average consumer wouldn't have a clue what that meant. Labeling with "Group III" or "Group IV" wouldn't mean a thing to most people (except BITOG). Right now Castrol Syntec says "full synthetic" on the bottle.

Instead of "Group III" if you were to label with "part synthetic", then the average consumer would understand it, but the company would have to relabel the blends they produce.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Curtis Newton quote:

quote:

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Because the average consumer wouldn't have a clue what that meant. Labeling with "Group III" or "Group IV" wouldn't mean a thing to most people (except BITOG). Right now Castrol Syntec says "full synthetic" on the bottle.

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I agree very much. It goes with the synthetic blend as well...for a religious 3K OCI dino user the word synthetic blend is a better oil....catch 22..you got synthetic in with dino and it turns a light bulb in what he feels as being better than dino.

I know a lot of people who I can't persuade, and that Castrol is their oil and I'd be crossing their path and they don't believe of Group 3 or Group4 oils but Castrol makes a synthetic. The word synthetic means synthetic and it's a high quality oil..

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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Consider this hypothetical: your next door neighbor works for Castrol. He borrows a tool from you and lies about his intent to return it to you. He then puts a tie on, goes to work, and lies to you about what's in the oil his company just sold you. I respectfully challenge you to make a principled distinction between these two situations. [/QB]

---

I don't think the morality in the synthetic debate is this clear. If it was, I'd be very surprised if anybody disagreed with you.

The key issue is not whether it's right or wrong to lie (it's wrong), but what the definition of synthetic is. Is group III a synthetic or not? I personally think it probably is. Others will disagree. Mobil thinks it isn't, Castrol thinks it is. If somebody thinks their product qualifies as synthetic, then they wouldn't be lying. I just don't think it is very clearcut.

However, if you do NOT belive that group III is synthetic, I completely respect your choice not to buy it.

 

[Mamala Bay]

I do recall that Mobil was not a full synthetic oil when they first came out. There was dino oil mix with synthetic oil and Mobil called it a Full Synthetic Oil. It was on Mobil's Label but I believe Mobil is presently a full synthetic oil.

Everyone can make their claim...is a group3 a full synthetic oil or does it perform like a synthetic...didn't Mobil make that claim a Full Synthetic Oil and it was not.