Cruze Diesel hitting dealer lots

[jayg]

The Cruze Eco has a 6 speed manual FWD trans. Its mated to a small turbo gas motor but I'm sure it would do OK with the right gearing to hold up to diesel power delivery.

But they assume we don't want it. Yet a large number of all VW TDIs (the main market basically) are manuals.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: jayg
The Cruze Eco has a 6 speed manual FWD trans. Its mated to a small turbo gas motor but I'm sure it would do OK with the right gearing to hold up to diesel power delivery.

But they assume we don't want it. Yet a large number of all VW TDIs (the main market basically) are manuals.


Tuned Cruzes with the 1.4T gasser mill have blown the M32 manual transmission already. The top gasser Cruzes are putting out ~200-220 ft/lbs, depending on whether they go E85 or not. The M32's 2nd and 4th gears in particular are fragile, and have been lunched at those power levels. Even at 180 ft/lbs, which is what my Cruze puts out on its conservative tune, 2nd gear gets noticeably soft if I repeatedly launch hard. Not a good idea to run 100 ft/lbs more through an already-fragile transmission.

GM would need to dig around its Euro parts bin further to find something that would take the torque. The F40 is around, and used in the Verano Turbo. It can withstand the torque.

Also, GM's selling ~900-1000 Cruze Diesels a month as it sits. Not a whole lot of demand there.

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: jayg
The Cruze Eco has a 6 speed manual FWD trans. Its mated to a small turbo gas motor but I'm sure it would do OK with the right gearing to hold up to diesel power delivery.

But they assume we don't want it. Yet a large number of all VW TDIs (the main market basically) are manuals.


Tuned Cruzes with the 1.4T gasser mill have blown the M32 manual transmission already. The top gasser Cruzes are putting out ~200-220 ft/lbs, depending on whether they go E85 or not. The M32's 2nd and 4th gears in particular are fragile, and have been lunched at those power levels. Even at 180 ft/lbs, which is what my Cruze puts out on its conservative tune, 2nd gear gets noticeably soft if I repeatedly launch hard. Not a good idea to run 100 ft/lbs more through an already-fragile transmission.

GM would need to dig around its Euro parts bin further to find something that would take the torque. The F40 is around, and used in the Verano Turbo. It can withstand the torque.

Also, GM's selling ~900-1000 Cruze Diesels a month as it sits. Not a whole lot of demand there.


Well that sucks about the transmissions not holding up to 200 whole hp.

I guess my idea was they have the transmission casing and bellhousing to fit a 6 speed manual to a fwd motor so they could piece together something.

 

[sciphi]

GM has the transmission already in the F40. But they presently do not import that transmission into the US except in the Verano Turbo.

The M32 used in the gasser Cruzes is an alright transmission. It just does not stand up to much more than 180 ft/lbs reliably.

Although, if there is enough of a demand, GM has shown that they will introduce manuals. They did it with the gas Cruzes, expanding manuals from the LS and Eco trims to the 1LT and 2LT trims.

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah but how does one show demand? Emailing manufacturers hasnt seemed to help...

And buyers either need a car or dont, and are usually there in the moment.

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

I really wanted the diesel Cruze, but could not justify the $5k difference in MSRP compared to the ECO with the manual transmission and the additional $2k in rebates for the 2013 models. Now if they would have offered that diesel engine in the Equanox I would have bought one.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
I really wanted the diesel Cruze, but could not justify the $5k difference in MSRP compared to the ECO with the manual transmission and the additional $2k in rebates for the 2013 models. Now if they would have offered that diesel engine in the Equanox I would have bought one.


That's the biggest problem that I see with Cruze diesel as well. The gas mileage increase is very small and no manual tranny, but a huge price premium. I have a feeling that most people looking at Cruze diesel will end up buying Cruze Eco.

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
I really wanted the diesel Cruze, but could not justify the $5k difference in MSRP compared to the ECO with the manual transmission and the additional $2k in rebates for the 2013 models. Now if they would have offered that diesel engine in the Equanox I would have bought one.


That's the biggest problem that I see with Cruze diesel as well. The gas mileage increase is very small and no manual tranny, but a huge price premium. I have a feeling that most people looking at Cruze diesel will end up buying Cruze Eco.


Or a Jetta TDI! A Cruze diesel is roughly around $25k down here. I got my Jetta with a manual trans for $21k out the door. Cheaper, better looks (imo), more fun (also IMO and I've driven both), and a stick.

 

[Benzadmiral]

If its driving experience is anything like that of the almost dead quiet Mercedes E-Class diesel I test drove earlier this year, then I'd be all for it. Put it in the Buick Regal, or even the LaCrosse, and it'd be dynamite.

 

[sciphi]

Real-world gas mileage of the manual Cruze Eco is very good, better than EPA. The automatic Cruze Eco does not do anywhere near as good as the manual, although it is better than the regular automatic Cruze LT/LTZ.

The diesel is meant to deliver Cruze 2LT/LTZ levels of refinement with Cruze Eco manual fuel mileage. The diesel has options that the Eco with either transmission cannot get, such as leather and a enhanced technology package. It's also quieter thanks to more sound deadening. The diesel also gets larger brakes front and rear, along with cushier struts. The comparison between the diesel and the Eco is apples to oranges since they are very different cars underneath the skin. Fraternal twins is an apt comparison.

Also, not everybody wants a high-MPG car with a manual transmission. While I and other posters in this thread do like manuals, other folks might not. And, we're in the decided minority, albeit a very vocal one.

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Also, not everybody wants a high-MPG car with a manual transmission. While I and other posters in this thread do like manuals, other folks might not. And, we're in the decided minority, albeit a very vocal one.


Right, and not everyone wants a high MPG with an automatic. So what do you do? Offer both like VW and sell them to all your prospective customers.

 

[cchase]

There's additional cost associated with certifying multiple drivetrains and if the manufacturer does not believe sales will justify these certifications, they won't release it.

It's not as simple as just "sell them both".

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: cchase
There's additional cost associated with certifying multiple drivetrains and if the manufacturer does not believe sales will justify these certifications, they won't release it.

It's not as simple as just "sell them both".


Correct. The EPA certs alone cost a TON of money, and they used to require a 50k mile real world test as well.

Hugely expensive.

 

[jayg]

If they want to be competitive in this market then pony up the money. If they aren't serious about getting alot of the market share and stealing sales from VW then why bother?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: cchase
There's additional cost associated with certifying multiple drivetrains and if the manufacturer does not believe sales will justify these certifications, they won't release it.

It's not as simple as just "sell them both".


Correct. The EPA certs alone cost a TON of money, and they used to require a 50k mile real world test as well.

Hugely expensive.


Please define a ton. Im sure they keep some small fleet of long term test vehicles regardless.

Some of these cars get self-certified, IIRC.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: cchase
There's additional cost associated with certifying multiple drivetrains and if the manufacturer does not believe sales will justify these certifications, they won't release it.

It's not as simple as just "sell them both".


Correct. The EPA certs alone cost a TON of money, and they used to require a 50k mile real world test as well.

Hugely expensive.


Please define a ton. Im sure they keep some small fleet of long term test vehicles regardless.

Some of these cars get self-certified, IIRC.



Think about it. A 50 thousand mile real world test after which the vehicle must exceed all applicable emissions requirements. Quite expensive.

This has nothing to do with mileage numbers.

 

[JHZR2]

Yes but it has to do with real dollars. You say a ton. What's the order of magnitude and basis?

The engineering is already done per the CAA (which we all pay for in the capital cost of our cars) to have a 100-150k mile warranty on the emissions system. 50k miles to exceed the threshold requirements is not a big deal. Its a matter of keeping one in the fleet, getting the miles on it, and submitting it.

 

[ls1mike]

I have been following this thread and I am still not going to buy a diesel car. After the 02 Jetta TDI, I just won't trust one unless it a Duramax in truck or Cummins in a truck and I am not sure I want one of those either.

The Jetta was just a very bad experinece, in addition to the normal VW problems it had, the diesel problems sucked. 2 sets of injectors, 1 set glow plugs, 2 glow plug wiring harnesses and intake/EGR cooler carbon build up issues.

I am sure it is fixed by now but the cost savings in MPG was not enough for me to risk getting another diesel.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Yeah but how does one show demand? Emailing manufacturers hasnt seemed to help...

And buyers either need a car or dont, and are usually there in the moment.


Exactly. The corporations are telling us what to buy. How can they see if there is enough demand for a vehicle if it is not even offered in the US?

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
I have been following this thread and I am still not going to buy a diesel car. After the 02 Jetta TDI, I just won't trust one unless it a Duramax in truck or Cummins in a truck and I am not sure I want one of those either.

The Jetta was just a very bad experinece, in addition to the normal VW problems it had, the diesel problems sucked. 2 sets of injectors, 1 set glow plugs, 2 glow plug wiring harnesses and intake/EGR cooler carbon build up issues.

I am sure it is fixed by now but the cost savings in MPG was not enough for me to risk getting another diesel.



I wouldn't even touch a new diesel truck with a 10 foot pole. Trucks with bad DEF sensors that prevent the truck from going over 30 mph? Trucks that cost 70 grand new and get worse mpg than gas trucks? Fuel pumps that aren't covered by warranty and cost $10,000 to fix?

There's no benefit of diesel trucks over gas at this point in time.