Confused about LC20 opinions...

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rondoggnuts

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After some reading of posts and UOAs, it appears that opinions of LC20 are pretty mixed. In particular, I noticed that some recommend to stop using LC20 since it affects TBN. Is it true that LC20 can "ruin" perfectly good oil? What else are the potential negative effects of using LC? Increased wear?

I have less than 30k mi on 3.0L I6 Toyota engine running M1 5W30 and add LC at recommended dose. Mostly interested in minor cleaning/maintenance since I figure it shouldn't be TOO bad with pretty low miles. I was actually pretty ignorant and used to change oil (M1) ~once per year at about 7000mi OCI. I now drive more and intend to change at 6 months, 7500 mi. Can using LC be a BAD idea for my application? Should I be using a different oil (e.g. dino)? I am not really interested in spending money on UOA and don't want to have to throw out a perfectly good gal of LC. I would consider more frequent OCI using dino if more cost effective while still protecting/cleaning. I also use Pureone filters (1 per OCI). Am I doing something wrong? Thanks for any feedback.
 
I've been using it constantly for nearly five years. You can look at an old (2003) UOA on one of our Jeeps for the before and after of LC-20.

Well over 100,000 miles of use. AND my family was using it back in the 1960's and 70's under it's old name of MICROLUBE.

Hire Terry Dyson to trend your vehicle and use of this product, as well as the oil, fuel additives, etc. Get the advice for your vehicle, not some opinion around here.
 
Quote:

I have seen posts (mostly in UOA) where people recommend NOT using LC20 . Can someone tell me why?

Click to expand...


I remember seeing some of those too. The recommendation to stop using LC usually accompanied a UOA with something out of wack - higher than expected wear for example. The problem with LC is that no one really seems to know what it is or what it does. The manufacturer does very little (or nothing) to explain how it functions or back up the performance claims on the their website. So when you add the mysterious LC20 to an oil that has already been fully formulated as a complete package, what exactly are you doing ? Are you adding something that will clash with the chemistry of the formulated oil ? Will it enhance it ? The manufacturer never seems to step-in and promote it, defend it, or tell anybody why they should use it. So when a surprise shows up in a UOA where LC20 has been used, people naturally suggest not using it, because it is sort of an unknown.

The only reason LC20 has any credibility at all is that Terry Dyson had some positive things to say about it. Molakule also did a small study on it, which is published on the LC website, and it's fairly positive. But in terms of real documented positive results from the field in everyday operating engines, I don't think there's much out there.

My most recent UOA post has 8 or 9 UOAs in a spreadsheet. 3 of those UOAs had LC20 in the oil. There was no difference in wear or oxidation with or without LC20. Tell me if you can pick out the LC20-spiked samples. Cut-open filters looked the same with or without LC20. So in *my case*, I tried to find the positive effects but could find none.

I do recall one poster saying that LC20 helped bring down his wear metals substantially when he was using Mobil 1. The dosage scheme was specifically recommended to him by Terry Dyson. So apparently it can do something.
 
From the looks of things, LC might do good, bad, or nothing at all? I suppose the only way to know for sure is through UOAs. But even if numbers are identical before and after, how does one judge the cleaning ability of LC?

I don't know what to think, but I certainly don't want a gallon to go to waste. I will probably end up using the product for the next 50,000 miles and *hope* that it did some cleaning. That is, unless someone would kindly give me a reason to not do so. Anyone?

I will likely get a UOA done at some point to make sure I don't have elevated levels of wear.
 
Rondo,

If you use it and your UOA(s) don't show any problems (or at least nothing new that wasn't there before), you'll at least know that it isn't hurting anything. And who knows, maybe you'll see something improve in the UOA.

Even in my case, the stuff may well have cleaned deposits out of my engine but I can't see in the engine so I can't so that for sure that it did or didn't. But that's also true for most additives.
 
Read this post carefully (results form using new aplication instructions) why would you even consider another product, surely not for oil oxidation problems.

"I am about 1000 miles into final rinse phase, I feel that all the junk has been released into the filter, but I will still be going another 2K to finish application, my reasoning is that my oil temperature is down by about 20 degrees, that reading was taken with an infrared gun aimed at the middle of the pan, the coolant temp is down, before it would stay alittle high even when cruising now when I come to a stop it goes up a little bit, then back down a bit while I am driving, before when I took a temp reading at the back of the head it was between 240 to 250 gegrees, now it is about 220 degrees, the car has more power, meaning that when I turn and hit the gas to get on to a major road it takes off like a rocket, changed oil filter at 500 miles and inside the filter, the oil that I dumped out was clean looking, not dark brownish gold like before, with the coolant temp gauge before if it got up to 190 it would stat there even with a 180 thermostat, now if I am sitting for a while maybe close to 185 or 190, then cruising back down to 180 or a little below, I should mention that since the car is not tested anymore you can guess about the stuff I removed, so there is no computer running anything, plugs look fantastic, no carbon residue, even though I feel that everything is out, I am not going to second guess Frank, I am going to change the filter Wednesday night or Thursday and see how things are doing, through this whole process oil that has been drained from pan has looked like a very slight dark gold not black, maybe all those filter changes, but oil dumped from filters has been darker than oil drained from pan, if you have a newer car with less than 20K do the maintenance dose so you do not have to go through what I am going through, I am doing maintenance dose on my 04 Marauder and my mileage coming back from N.Y. was 30.2 miles per gallon, the car is rated for 23 miles per gallon highway, I attribute some of this to Auto-Rx letting oil get to everywhere it needs to be"

Make sure you don't miss his statement about Mercury Maurader Increase in MPG.
 
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LC and Auto-Rx chemistries do not mix. Auto-Rx will drive LC into filter. Suggest you follow new Auto-Rx Application it works on type sludge your having problems with. One of the reasons we changed the mileage.
 
Found this old post by Terry think it covers the LC question and this was before we changed our application instructions.

"LC" does not bond to engine parts it is a primary anti oxidant for the oil.

It has EP capability but how is proprietary.

There is no reason that BOTH products can't be used properly by those that care more about honest science over marketing.

Just not at the same time in the same unit.



Terry



Dyson Analysis

3679 CR 2184

Greenville, TX 75402

903 883 4661
 
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hmmm... I think Frank made (3) posts above on accident. Doesn't really apply to this thread...

Thanks for the input guys. I will take it all into consideration and post any results.
 
Think this post from Rick 20 an accident?

Rick20
Group II+ Member


Reged: 07/26/02
Posts: 767
Loc: Central Florida
Re: Auto-RX & LC20 Experience [Re: Frank]
#1005905 - 10/11/07 02:06 PM
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I have never found LC20 to be very effective in dissolving any hardened sludge deposits. I have not seen any evidence that it will help the host motor oil suspend contaminants either. I speak only of a gallons use.

You have got to remember that ARX dismantles the binders in sludge sothat it gets slowly carried away. My guess is that these cam deposits would have rinsed away on there own.

Interesting story. I use a clear polypropylene 1/2 gallon jug to drain the oil from my JD lawn tractor. And I usually never get around to bringing it up for disposal, until I am ready to dumpe the next oil interval. Over a couple of years the amount of sediment from the oil drains in the bottom of the bottle became somewhat significant. I first though that a little fresh oil in the bottom would clean out the bottom with some swirling agitation. Very little impact. Next I tried an oil and LC mix. Swirled it around with little to no impact. Sure it darkened a bit but no real progress. Lastly I mixed a little ARX with some oil and swirled it around. The bottom of that PP jug was spotless. True story.

IMO don't think that LC can do half the cleaning job of ARX.
LC is designed to act as an antioxidant in motor oil, in other words a sludge preventer. But if you already have sludge or deposits, ARX is a far better option. ARX provides for slow methodical cleaning, and aid the oil in suspending these contaminants. There is never any chunking off of abrasive potentially damaging deposits liberated into the oil system. The products are not in the same league.

Post Extras: Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Email Post
 
While I don't doubt the quality of arx, it was never mentioned in this thread. I also have no reason to believe that I have a problem with sludge. That's why I assumed it was an accidental post.

I was simply asking if LC20 can be harmful to use for my application. I have already purchased LC and don't want it to go to waste. Therefore, any benefit would be acceptable to me.

Is there a reason why you thought I had a problem with sludge? Keep in mind it's a 2003 with ~27,000 mi on it.
 
Do not worry about it I ahve used LC to help with insolubles in my Toyota. I never experinced any problems other then the fact that some of the additives seem to be lower then they should be when a UOA is done with LC in the mix. Their was no additional wear with or without it. Seeing how Toyota's number one problem is with depoait control in the form of insolubes I would keep useing the LC20 at recomended dosages. One every two year's do a 16 onces LC20 flush for 500 miles and call it good!!!!
 
Keep in mind that oil analysis does not directly measure wear. It shows the wear particles that the oil is carrying. If the first couple of oil charges with LC20 picked up some old wear particles, then those would show in the analysis.

The way to measure wear is to either measure or weigh the parts vs. their dimensions or weight when new.
 
Ken, that is a great point that I did not fully consider. I will definitely wait a couple changes before sending in my oil. We appreciate the input.
 
LC is an anti-oxidant, but since it can be used as a "flush", it does have cleaning potential.

The only recommendations I have seen against its use is when other number are out of whack and a baseline needs to be obtained.....OR... those that have 'overused' the product ie. more than 2oz. per 1k mi. seem to have increased Pb levels.
 
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