Complete opinion: When would you change the FF?
- Thread starter jigen
- Start date
- Status
Could there be debris from the assy/mfg process? Yeah, could be. What the filter is for. Is there proof an early FF OC makes an engine last longer? No, impossible to prove. Is FF oil different chemistry? Not sure if it ever was, never performed a UOA. Doubt it is today.
Should you break a car in they way you plan to drive it? Same OCI, same driving patterns from day one? I had no choice, the fleet vehicles I used from the 90's to mid 2k's needed to hit the road and get to destinations asap. I never had any engine problems well over 100k.
I don't think it matters. Break it in how you plan to use it.
Should you break a car in they way you plan to drive it? Same OCI, same driving patterns from day one? I had no choice, the fleet vehicles I used from the 90's to mid 2k's needed to hit the road and get to destinations asap. I never had any engine problems well over 100k.
I don't think it matters. Break it in how you plan to use it.
I changed the FF on the F150 after 2500 miles. My reasoning was that the truck was built in 6/2012 and I bought it in 4/2011. I figured it had a lot of starts to move it around the dealer parking lot, short test drives, ect. So it was in there for almost a year when I changed it.
Normially I would have let it go a little longer.
Normially I would have let it go a little longer.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Given the extra moly and zdp typical of many FF, I would leave it for 3 months/3K. ...I have broken in more new cars than anybody on here (over 50) and I was a 1K FF dumper before learning more on BITOG.
Good, informative post that makes sense.
Jim, you just lost your street cred!
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Given the extra moly and zdp typical of many FF, I would leave it for 3 months/3K. ...I have broken in more new cars than anybody on here (over 50) and I was a 1K FF dumper before learning more on BITOG.
Good, informative post that makes sense.
Jim, you just lost your street cred!
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Given the extra moly and zdp typical of many FF, I would leave it for 3 months/3K. ...I have broken in more new cars than anybody on here (over 50) and I was a 1K FF dumper before learning more on BITOG.
Good, informative post that makes sense.
Jim, you just lost your street cred!
What? Am I "Dr. No" or something?
If it makes sense, why not say so? Ditto if it doesn't (which may be more fun in some cases ( : < ).
Like you said, the formulations of the FF break-in oils have got to be a consideration in the cases where they are used. Makes sense. More and more I learn to give the OEM recommendations a lot of weight in any decisions I make. Not following blindly but no automatic dismissal either.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Given the extra moly and zdp typical of many FF, I would leave it for 3 months/3K. ...I have broken in more new cars than anybody on here (over 50) and I was a 1K FF dumper before learning more on BITOG.
Good, informative post that makes sense.
Jim, you just lost your street cred!
What? Am I "Dr. No" or something?
If it makes sense, why not say so? Ditto if it doesn't (which may be more fun in some cases ( : < ).
Like you said, the formulations of the FF break-in oils have got to be a consideration in the cases where they are used. Makes sense. More and more I learn to give the OEM recommendations a lot of weight in any decisions I make. Not following blindly but no automatic dismissal either.
Originally Posted By: volk06
Not another one of these threads.
aaaargh, me too!
Not another one of these threads.
aaaargh, me too!
FWIW, a guy on the VW TDI forum visited the diesel factory in Germany where the TDI diesel engine is made and was warned NOT to change the ff early (it was an oil made by FUCHS - the factory fill specialist - rather than Castrol, the service fill). Don't know about VW gassers like the OP's Tiguan. This also comports with advice from Doug Hillary re premature dumping of ff - - some ff do, according to him, contain break-in additives.
From what I've read, abrasive wear is caused primarily by iron wear metals. The limit is around 100-200 ppm (depending on which source you follow). In the BMW community, the fact that BMW requires draining the ff at 1200 mi on M cars is taken by the Bimwads as absolute proof positive that the ff should likewise be dumped at 1200 mi on any of the more pedestrian BMW's, even though BMW doesn't recommend it. Well, I had a 2002 M3 and I dutifully drained the ff at 1500 mi and the uoa showed 10 ppm iron. For whatever reason BMW wants the ff drained at 1200 mi on M cars, I don't think it's to "wash out" the wear metals (it's a virtually blue-printed engine, anyway).
As for the "it can't hurt" line of thinking, there is some evidence accumulating that unnecessarily frequent or short interval changes of oil may be counterproductive.
Every time you change the oil, you're putting the engine through a period of sub-optimal lubrication until the new oil gets up to speed.
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link, but it showed that for about the first 3000 mi, wear metals increased rather rapidly, then more or less leveled off as the oil stabilized. It also showed the TBN dropping initially about 2 or 3 points, as I remember, then dropping much more gradually as the oil aged. Finally, there was a SAE study that showed that new oil had a tendency to dissolve or remove the zddp tribological anti-wear layer laid down by the old oil before it built up its own layer. I didn't want to believe it, so I didn't book mark it. But it likewise seems to support the Ford/Conoco SAE study.
From what I've read, abrasive wear is caused primarily by iron wear metals. The limit is around 100-200 ppm (depending on which source you follow). In the BMW community, the fact that BMW requires draining the ff at 1200 mi on M cars is taken by the Bimwads as absolute proof positive that the ff should likewise be dumped at 1200 mi on any of the more pedestrian BMW's, even though BMW doesn't recommend it. Well, I had a 2002 M3 and I dutifully drained the ff at 1500 mi and the uoa showed 10 ppm iron. For whatever reason BMW wants the ff drained at 1200 mi on M cars, I don't think it's to "wash out" the wear metals (it's a virtually blue-printed engine, anyway).
As for the "it can't hurt" line of thinking, there is some evidence accumulating that unnecessarily frequent or short interval changes of oil may be counterproductive.
Every time you change the oil, you're putting the engine through a period of sub-optimal lubrication until the new oil gets up to speed.
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link, but it showed that for about the first 3000 mi, wear metals increased rather rapidly, then more or less leveled off as the oil stabilized. It also showed the TBN dropping initially about 2 or 3 points, as I remember, then dropping much more gradually as the oil aged. Finally, there was a SAE study that showed that new oil had a tendency to dissolve or remove the zddp tribological anti-wear layer laid down by the old oil before it built up its own layer. I didn't want to believe it, so I didn't book mark it. But it likewise seems to support the Ford/Conoco SAE study.
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link,
It was probably the study done by 3 Mad Ponchos, a BITOGer himself. Alas, I think his page is now defunct, unless it got relocated somewhere...
http://web.archive.org/web/20101024230758/http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link,
It was probably the study done by 3 Mad Ponchos, a BITOGer himself. Alas, I think his page is now defunct, unless it got relocated somewhere...
http://web.archive.org/web/20101024230758/http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Things are way different now with new factory engines and modern oils.
You can let it go MUCH further than what was considered smart years ago. 500 miles or even less was common.
I still could not go past 2k, even though many do in perfect safety.
Your 1,500 miles is fine. You won't ever second guess yourself later on.
You can let it go MUCH further than what was considered smart years ago. 500 miles or even less was common.
I still could not go past 2k, even though many do in perfect safety.
Your 1,500 miles is fine. You won't ever second guess yourself later on.
Thanks for the replies.
I didn't want to create a thread that bothered anyone, but I was just curious about this engine type since I am new to turbos or direct injection engines when it comes to OCI, especially FF.
I will search around some more, but I am not sure if VW uses a special break in oil for the gas factory fill. I believe it's just regular Castrol 5w-40.
I didn't want to create a thread that bothered anyone, but I was just curious about this engine type since I am new to turbos or direct injection engines when it comes to OCI, especially FF.
I will search around some more, but I am not sure if VW uses a special break in oil for the gas factory fill. I believe it's just regular Castrol 5w-40.
On a brand new car.
1st OCI @ 500 miles (oil only)
2nd OCI @ 1500 miles where I change all fluids like diffs, transfer cases, etc
3rd OCI is when I begin whatever the 1st factory recommended OCI is. (at a licensed dealer or mechanic for warranty issues)
My reason?
It's simple...I buy new cars about every 5-6 years...usually I'm so excited about having a new car I just gotta work on it. I know with modern cars and modern fluids things can easily go straight from the start. Its just the gear head in me wanting to play with a new toy.
Regarding your first OC at 1,500 its totally fine. I don't know about VW currently, but in '96 my wife bought a Jetta that was Castrol straight from the factory.
1st OCI @ 500 miles (oil only)
2nd OCI @ 1500 miles where I change all fluids like diffs, transfer cases, etc
3rd OCI is when I begin whatever the 1st factory recommended OCI is. (at a licensed dealer or mechanic for warranty issues)
My reason?
It's simple...I buy new cars about every 5-6 years...usually I'm so excited about having a new car I just gotta work on it. I know with modern cars and modern fluids things can easily go straight from the start. Its just the gear head in me wanting to play with a new toy.
Regarding your first OC at 1,500 its totally fine. I don't know about VW currently, but in '96 my wife bought a Jetta that was Castrol straight from the factory.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link,
It was probably the study done by 3 Mad Ponchos, a BITOGer himself. Alas, I think his page is now defunct, unless it got relocated somewhere...
http://web.archive.org/web/20101024230758/http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Yes, that's the one I had in mind. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
A Camaro car club did an informal study, that supports the FORD/Conoco study, where they drew a sample every 1000 mi and did a uoa, up until the oil was changed at 18000 mi. Unfortunately, I've lost the link,
It was probably the study done by 3 Mad Ponchos, a BITOGer himself. Alas, I think his page is now defunct, unless it got relocated somewhere...
http://web.archive.org/web/20101024230758/http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Yes, that's the one I had in mind. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
FWIW, a guy on the VW TDI forum visited the diesel factory in Germany where the TDI diesel engine is made and was warned NOT to change the ff early (it was an oil made by FUCHS - the factory fill specialist - rather than Castrol, the service fill). Don't know about VW gassers like the OP's Tiguan.
VW Head Office is probably petrified about what certain North American VW dealers use for service lube for TDIs and gassers (i.e. API/ILSAC oils instead of anything resembling the ACEA specifications, let alone VW/Audi specs).
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Things are way different now with new factory engines and modern oils. You can let it go MUCH further than what was considered smart years ago. 500 miles or even less was common.
I think this is commonly forgotten, along with the old advice of changing the factory fills early. While we in North America may have been quick to embrace thinner oils, we're certainly more reluctant to embrace the longer OCIs or dispense with concern over factory fills.
Personally, with respect to factory fill changing, if I were buying a new car, I'd follow the manual within limits. If it explicitly warned against changing the factory fill (or I knew from another source, like here, that there is a special fortified factory fill), I'd follow that rule. If it simply said it's not necessary, I'd be tempted to change early. I may be wrong; I may be right. I'm not married to that philosophy.
With respect to the metal flakes we see in the oil in the first change of a new car's oil, I agree with a couple points brought up here. First, I have seen such flecks. They are more noticeable with aftermarket rebuilds than they are with new cars. I also haven't seen a lot of brand new cars' first drains in the past few years, though, either. Secondly, I also agree with what some other posters here have said. If you're actually seeing glint in the oil, it's certainly large enough for the filter to pick up. If the filter didn't pick it up and it's still in the oil, my bet would be that the oil pickup isn't grabbing it and circulating it in the first place. Sure, I'd prefer it not be there, but if the filter didn't grab it and it's not circulating, is there any harm?
FWIW, a guy on the VW TDI forum visited the diesel factory in Germany where the TDI diesel engine is made and was warned NOT to change the ff early (it was an oil made by FUCHS - the factory fill specialist - rather than Castrol, the service fill). Don't know about VW gassers like the OP's Tiguan.
VW Head Office is probably petrified about what certain North American VW dealers use for service lube for TDIs and gassers (i.e. API/ILSAC oils instead of anything resembling the ACEA specifications, let alone VW/Audi specs).
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Things are way different now with new factory engines and modern oils. You can let it go MUCH further than what was considered smart years ago. 500 miles or even less was common.
I think this is commonly forgotten, along with the old advice of changing the factory fills early. While we in North America may have been quick to embrace thinner oils, we're certainly more reluctant to embrace the longer OCIs or dispense with concern over factory fills.
Personally, with respect to factory fill changing, if I were buying a new car, I'd follow the manual within limits. If it explicitly warned against changing the factory fill (or I knew from another source, like here, that there is a special fortified factory fill), I'd follow that rule. If it simply said it's not necessary, I'd be tempted to change early. I may be wrong; I may be right. I'm not married to that philosophy.
With respect to the metal flakes we see in the oil in the first change of a new car's oil, I agree with a couple points brought up here. First, I have seen such flecks. They are more noticeable with aftermarket rebuilds than they are with new cars. I also haven't seen a lot of brand new cars' first drains in the past few years, though, either. Secondly, I also agree with what some other posters here have said. If you're actually seeing glint in the oil, it's certainly large enough for the filter to pick up. If the filter didn't pick it up and it's still in the oil, my bet would be that the oil pickup isn't grabbing it and circulating it in the first place. Sure, I'd prefer it not be there, but if the filter didn't grab it and it's not circulating, is there any harm?
Originally Posted By: Garak
With respect to the metal flakes we see in the oil in the first change of a new car's oil, I agree with a couple points brought up here. First, I have seen such flecks. They are more noticeable with aftermarket rebuilds than they are with new cars. I also haven't seen a lot of brand new cars' first drains in the past few years, though, either. Secondly, I also agree with what some other posters here have said. If you're actually seeing glint in the oil, it's certainly large enough for the filter to pick up. If the filter didn't pick it up and it's still in the oil, my bet would be that the oil pickup isn't grabbing it and circulating it in the first place. Sure, I'd prefer it not be there, but if the filter didn't grab it and it's not circulating, is there any harm?
This is precisely true until/unless the filter is choked and going into frequent high-flow bypass - then the "flake dance" begins!
With respect to the metal flakes we see in the oil in the first change of a new car's oil, I agree with a couple points brought up here. First, I have seen such flecks. They are more noticeable with aftermarket rebuilds than they are with new cars. I also haven't seen a lot of brand new cars' first drains in the past few years, though, either. Secondly, I also agree with what some other posters here have said. If you're actually seeing glint in the oil, it's certainly large enough for the filter to pick up. If the filter didn't pick it up and it's still in the oil, my bet would be that the oil pickup isn't grabbing it and circulating it in the first place. Sure, I'd prefer it not be there, but if the filter didn't grab it and it's not circulating, is there any harm?
This is precisely true until/unless the filter is choked and going into frequent high-flow bypass - then the "flake dance" begins!
Not another one of these threads. LOL
I have a new Prius.
I am going to do 3000k, 6000k and then stick to the 10,000k mile oci recommended by Toyota.
I am going to do 3000k, 6000k and then stick to the 10,000k mile oci recommended by Toyota.
Originally Posted By: Oldwolf
I have a new Prius.
I am going to do 3000k, 6000k and then stick to the 10,000k mile oci recommended by Toyota.
So you're going to change it at 3,000,000 miles, then 6,000,000 then do 10,000,000 mile intervals? I don't think Toyota recommends that.
I have a new Prius.
I am going to do 3000k, 6000k and then stick to the 10,000k mile oci recommended by Toyota.
So you're going to change it at 3,000,000 miles, then 6,000,000 then do 10,000,000 mile intervals? I don't think Toyota recommends that.
I was still sleepy and hadn't had my coffee yet! I meant 3k, 6k, and 10k!
Originally Posted By: fpracha
This is precisely true until/unless the filter is choked and going into frequent high-flow bypass - then the "flake dance" begins!
Absolutely. Especially if the filer is tiny, I certainly wouldn't be averse to at least a filter change.
This is precisely true until/unless the filter is choked and going into frequent high-flow bypass - then the "flake dance" begins!
Absolutely. Especially if the filer is tiny, I certainly wouldn't be averse to at least a filter change.
- Status
