Complete HVAC Job With Tankless Water Heater

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Mar 2, 2013
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The Midwest
My parents had a Rheem variable AC installed a few years ago. Big difference in feel from the traditional setup. You can set the temp higher and the compressor will run at a lower output 24/7 in the summer pulling out more humidity than a cycling single speed can dream of.

So it actually feels nice inside at higher temps that both my mom and dad both can handle.

With the old system, my mom wanted the thermostat set higher than my dad which made the house muggy.

The con with a variable AC system is more upfront expense, reliability and repair cost.

There is also the option of a ducted whole home dehumidifier but those aren't without cons.
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
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Location
Lexington, NC
American Standard 2 1/2 ton, 13 Seer, 21 years old in 2400 sq ft rancher: all elec house..bill two weeks ago was $176. Highest this summer. Rarely goes over $200 summer or winter. Unit has never been serviced other than I have flushed the outside coils a few times.

In short, I'd go for the Amer Std.
 
Joined
May 5, 2013
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757
Location
Peace valley, Missouri
American standard is trane. How are your windows, doors , ventilation of attic and insulation? By upgrading any or all above can cut the size of equipment. Check with your utility companies for a energy audit that offers a blower door test ( tells how tight the house is) and rebates. Check with your tax man for state and fed incentives. With high efficiency equipment it takes 3/4 residential service people out of servicing the equipment. More electronics and will take a laptop with the correct program and cables to service it. Whatever brand contractor should be trained by a factory school. The 10 year labor warrantee there has to be a catch like yearly service or cleaning.
 
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Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
494
Location
Litchfield, Ohio
Sounds like oversized equipment...on hot humid days shouldn't properly sized equipment run most of the time? How short is the run time that the coil is not getting cold enough to the point where it is not dehumidifying?

I have a 4 ton Bosch IDS 2.0 heat pump with the Bosch BCC 100 thermostat that was installed this past spring. I read about and watched videos on the humidity issues with the Bosch IDS systems but have not had any issues. The SW4 dip switch is on for the cooler the coil temp and we keep the house at 68F. The house is 3000sqft and it's been very hot and humid here this summer. On days above 85F the system runs 100% of the time but cycles between stage 1 and stage 2 during the day. The house is in full sunshine during the day. Humidity is generally between 50-55% and only creeps up to the low 60's at night when system finally cycles off. Once it cycles back on humidity goes down almost immediately to the mid 50's. We hit 96F a few times this summer and 95F was threshold at which temp starting to creep up to 69-70F and the unit could not keep up but I'll take a 27F difference between outside and inside temp.

This replaced a 25 year old Rheem that still cooled but my electric bill has gone down from AC adding $300 per month to my electric bill to only adding $115 to my electric bill. So far I'm happy.
It is for sure the same characteristic as over sized equipment. But most situations the equipment is actually sized right. The problem though is bosch only offers a 3 and 5 ton condenser as you probably know. My house for example needs 2.5 tons of cooling so I'm running the 3 ton condenser. Running a 2.5 ton evaporator coil. Ive got my furnace set at the lowest fan speed for cooling. Actually running lower than the heat speed. My humidity in the house is between 62 and 68 percent. On really hot days it might pull down to 58 percent. Ive also got the thermostat set so it will run a minimum of 12 minutes. The condenser is also set to run in accelerated mode. Wish I would have over sized the evaporator coil now. That would have helped a bit with the humidity control.

I'm glad to hear yours is doing good. The majority of our customers love theirs. The savings on the electric bill is noticeable to most people. I think mine is costing me roughly a dollar per day in air conditioning mode. It might even be less than that. Heat mode is a different story though. The 1.0 was rated down to 5 degrees but below 20 they seem useless. I have mine set to lock out below 30 and I switch over to fuel oil. My electric bill jumps too much if I run it below 30. I was wondering if they got any better with the 2.0 but like I said I have yet to touch one.
 
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Messages
494
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Litchfield, Ohio
Great info thanks.
The dealer was bashing Goodman.
Maybe they don't know?
American Standard is the way I'm leaning.

Bosh appliances I bought for my parents were short lived and pretty sparse on features. Not a fan at all.
The company just called and I ran your info by them. They too are aware of it but tried to say they think the hardware is Japanese.

Look they should know. I told them Germany started the whole Chinese revolution as I have been dealing with them since the late 70's.

The Germans tooled up many Chinese factories. You mean their units do not have a country of origin tag or stamp on them. They know where this stuff is made.

He got nervous about the Goodman question too. Really...lol

And yes they are seeing dehumidifying issues too. Just like you said.

China knocks off German products because they were once sent to them to manufacture. I see it all the time.

Bosch must have a sweet markup.
Thanks a bunch for your help.
American Standard and Trane is good equipment. Its well made and has a good track record. It is in my opinion some of the best on the market.

The compressor on the bosch is a Mitsubishi. Thats the only thing Japanese about them. The 2.0 version uses a different brand of compressor though. The sticker on their equipment says made in china.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2018
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Location
MA
It is for sure the same characteristic as over sized equipment. But most situations the equipment is actually sized right. The problem though is bosch only offers a 3 and 5 ton condenser as you probably know. My house for example needs 2.5 tons of cooling so I'm running the 3 ton condenser. Running a 2.5 ton evaporator coil. Ive got my furnace set at the lowest fan speed for cooling. Actually running lower than the heat speed. My humidity in the house is between 62 and 68 percent. On really hot days it might pull down to 58 percent. Ive also got the thermostat set so it will run a minimum of 12 minutes. The condenser is also set to run in accelerated mode. Wish I would have over sized the evaporator coil now. That would have helped a bit with the humidity control.

I'm glad to hear yours is doing good. The majority of our customers love theirs. The savings on the electric bill is noticeable to most people. I think mine is costing me roughly a dollar per day in air conditioning mode. It might even be less than that. Heat mode is a different story though. The 1.0 was rated down to 5 degrees but below 20 they seem useless. I have mine set to lock out below 30 and I switch over to fuel oil. My electric bill jumps too much if I run it below 30. I was wondering if they got any better with the 2.0 but like I said I have yet to touch one.
I've been monitoring humidity constantly since it went in. Right now at 10PM it's definitely the worst time - not hot enough to kick the unit on but lots of residual heat in the attic and so humidity will climb into the low 60% between cycles. Today it was 91F here and humidity on the first floor was 45% and the second floor was 53-55% and the unit kept it 68F all day. As I said, the unit did not turn off once during the heat of the day and the manual J calc came out to be a little over 4 tons so I'm probably on the low end if not slightly undersized but with the ability to maintain a delta of 27F I'm not complaining!

Now we will see if it's reliable!
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2018
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MA
CDX825...just a thought but isn't the condenser able to run at +100% (115%) on these units? I'm wondering if these systems just do better with humidity slightly undersized but still do fine with temp control since they can run at >100%?

Just a thought...not my wheelhouse in any way!
 

Zee09

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My parents had a Rheem variable AC installed a few years ago. Big difference in feel from the traditional setup. You can set the temp higher and the compressor will run at a lower output 24/7 in the summer pulling out more humidity than a cycling single speed can dream of.

So it actually feels nice inside at higher temps that both my mom and dad both can handle.

With the old system, my mom wanted the thermostat set higher than my dad which made the house muggy.

The con with a variable AC system is more upfront expense, reliability and repair cost.

There is also the option of a ducted whole home dehumidifier but those aren't without cons.
I have a hybrid oil system with variable speed as well in my shop house. So far no issues and its now 6 years old. Cost me $8700 and is a Bryant with wifi thermostat.

But I prefer to run it as a dedicated AC and oil heater. Don't like extended runs times in hybrid mode.
 
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Oct 4, 2009
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494
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Litchfield, Ohio
CDX825...just a thought but isn't the condenser able to run at +100% (115%) on these units? I'm wondering if these systems just do better with humidity slightly undersized but still do fine with temp control since they can run at >100%?

Just a thought...not my wheelhouse in any way!
I agree with under sizing would be better like you said. Its going to run more and have time to ramp up the compressor then.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2018
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I agree with under sizing would be better like you said. Its going to run more and have time to ramp up the compressor then.
Not that you need proof but currently here it's 85F, 72% humidity, the dew point is 75F, and the RH in here is 52%. Earlier outside it was 93F and 60% humidity and RH inside was 48%.
 

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Zee09

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I have seen some figures that a SEER 16 AC unit only saves $250. Over a 14 SEER for the entire life of the unit. I assume that is based on 10 years.
Not exactly worth the extra cost eh???
 
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I have seen some figures that a SEER 16 AC unit only saves $250. Over a 14 SEER for the entire life of the unit. I assume that is based on 10 years.
Not exactly worth the extra cost eh???
There are deals to be had with high SEER equipment. My quotes for Seer 14 ACs from Rheem, Ruud, and Carrier were $12-15K with a $500 rebate. The Bosch IDS 2.0 heat pump is a SEER 20 and can qualify for a rebate of up to $1250 per ton. So the total cost is now $10,500 - $6250 or $4250. So far this summer I'm spending $200 less per month on electricity in spite of the fact that July and August were both the hottest months on record for central MA. We use AC 5-6 months per year at a cold 68F and I estimate we'll save $800-$1000 alone in electricity this summer. Now, it's also a dual-fuel heat pump, and if you live where I live where we have a municipal electric company they tend to be cheap and we pay a flat $0.14 per KWhn which means I will be saving significant money in the winter too by using less oil by using the heat pump above 30F.

I'm not sure what my old system was as far as SEER rating but $200 per month is big savings IMO.
 
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Zee09

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There are deals to be had with high SEER equipment. My quotes for Seer 14 ACs from Rheem, Ruud, and Carrier were $12-15K with a $500 rebate. The Bosch IDS 2.0 heat pump is a SEER 20 and can qualify for a rebate of up to $1250 per ton. So the total cost is now $10,500 - $6250 or $4250. So far this summer I'm spending $200 less per month on electricity in spite of the fact that July and August were both the hottest months on record for central MA. We use AC 5-6 months per year at a cold 68F and I estimate we'll save $800-$1000 alone in electricity this summer. Now, it's also a dual-fuel heat pump, and if you live where I live where we have a municipal electric company they tend to be cheap and we pay a flat $0.14 per KWhn which means I will be saving significant money in the winter too by using less oil by using the heat pump above 30F.

I'm not sure what my old system was as far as SEER rating but $200 per month is big savings IMO.
Many incentives through Maryland are gone. My power Co will give me
$700 for a 80 gallon hybrid water heater. Which I am doing.
Some other minor incentives are available.
I like efficiency of top end units but
am rethinking it as I only pay 6.39 cents a kwh for electric and I lock that in for 3 years.
Plus I have dual units. 16 SEER probably won't save me enough to pay for the upgrade even after 10 years.

Better for me to go better on the LG furnaces at 97% afue. Rather a cheap upgrade
 

Zee09

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I had a hvac estimator come out Saturday at 10 AM.

Took 45 minutes to go through the house and check out everything.

Great guy..we talked about everything from flipping houses to women of course.

I had to move him out because he didn't want to leave. At 4pm I told him I had to get back to my shop.

But he was a great person and we had much in common and he is going out of his way to get me incentives etc.

No pressure and very honest.
Gave several options as well.
Wants to come back and hang out with his fiancée and visit...

Seems he took a liking to my house as well. Maybe I cam dump my ex fiancée on him....lol

No I couldn't do that to anyone
..lol
 
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Joined
Jun 10, 2002
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Chattanooga, TN
Tankless Water heater, saves gas, unlimited hot water. However, not a real savings as one should descale it once a year. To do so it is 150-200 for plumber to do so or you get the sump pump and hoses (one time purchase) and DIY, plus the descaling product. In short, no $$ savings either way if that is what you are looking for. Most warranties are 10 years, descaling will prolong the life. I got a ton of crap out this year from descaling.
 
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Being this is a world wide forum, we need to remember electric costs and savings vary all around the world.
I dont feel the need to have a super efficient AC unit at a higher cost and the very real possibility of being less reliable from what I read in here.

My electric costs are 10 cents a KWH depending on how I manage our peak usage rate but that is pretty consistent. Plus a $29 a month "service charge"
Yet I see some, not many at all, neighbors upgrade AC systems here like crazy instead of repairs and very, very few even get solar panels. I fell they wont even live in the house anymore by the time they make any money back and cant help feel that they are a product of really good sales people.
Throw in the fact that todays solars panels will look like dinosaurs on roofs compared to the new modern looking roof shingles which I suspect will be mainstream in 15 years.
 
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Joined
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Tankless might be infinite hot water albeit a delay. They require expensive yearly maintenance around $200 and they gets expensive and offsets your savings. HVAC companies recommend because they get service work.
 
Joined
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NE,Ohio
Many incentives through Maryland are gone. My power Co will give me
$700 for a 80 gallon hybrid water heater. Which I am doing.
Some other minor incentives are available.
I like efficiency of top end units but
am rethinking it as I only pay 6.39 cents a kwh for electric and I lock that in for 3 years.
Plus I have dual units. 16 SEER probably won't save me enough to pay for the upgrade even after 10 years.

Better for me to go better on the LG furnaces at 97% afue. Rather a cheap upgrade

you probably dont actually pay 6.39cents.

I paid "$.0499/kwh" and with distribution taxes fee recovery etc its more like 15-16cents/kwh
 
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