Labman, I understand that very much. I think in this time, our strongest witness is how we serve the needs of people of the world - deed ministry. Reformed churches like yours and mine have long emphasized word ministry. But we can make a tremendous witness with how we serve the suffering and the needy. Compassion ministry played a large part in the growth of the early church - - Christians cared for strangers, in contrast to the culture of the day.
Clinton Labor Sec:"People who follow God are worse than Terrorists"
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The only group I know that actively "pushes" religion on you by going door to door is the Jehovah Witnesses. And while they could be persistant you can always close the door on them and they wouldn't try to kill you if you don't convert
. Or you could do what my father did when he retired. He would invite them in and have religious discussions with them for hours. THEY would plead for mercy and run out the door eventually
. To take G-d out of all society will lead to it's downfall. As another poster said look at Germany in the 30's and 40's. Plus look at the Communist countries that forbid religion and the shape they are in. In the US we have total freedom to practice whatever religion you wish, as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. Even the Muslims are free to worship as they see fit. They just have to restrain from killing us infidels
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Whimsey
Whimsey
Could Hitler legitimately claim to be a Christian based on his actions? Not outside Nazi Germany, the clan and a few other groups of dirtbags.
But, Hitler claimed to be a Christian. He didn't close churches. Many if not most Germans in the 1930s were religious.
Evil is done under many names.
Look, I have nothing against people of faith, in any religion. My point is that any EXTREME position, which apparently many think I have taken, creates problems many times. I think back to the many religous wars and fighting of today because he doesn't believe what this one does and she doesn't believe this and that....it goes on and on. Religion can be just as bad as many claim it is good. Agree?
Society needs morals/values and it keeps a society healthy. I'd rather get values from family and multiple sources then one single source. And when religous people starting trying to control your life, then I find it obnoxious. You have to admit, that many times they do.
I've seen some people on religous TV shows,claiming to have bizzare religous experiences, falling over and getting healed
What the high priests of the cult of secular humanism, the Novus Ordo Seclorum, steadfastly refuse to recognize is that from a historical perspective, every Culture's founding religion spawns it's own science. Hence, Nietzsche's famous observation "Science was Theology's handmaid for too long...".
From a philosophical standpoint, Science and Religion are completely intertwined, that is Science grows out of its native Religion. Both Science and Religion are based upon a belief in eternal truths (God's Law - Natural Law), rational thought and learned dogma.
In actuality, in our "modern times", the opposite of the religious monastery is not the scientific university, it is Caesar's Legions. Here, Facts not Truths, Destiny not Logic and The World as History not The World as Nature reign supreme...
[ July 10, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
From a philosophical standpoint, Science and Religion are completely intertwined, that is Science grows out of its native Religion. Both Science and Religion are based upon a belief in eternal truths (God's Law - Natural Law), rational thought and learned dogma.
In actuality, in our "modern times", the opposite of the religious monastery is not the scientific university, it is Caesar's Legions. Here, Facts not Truths, Destiny not Logic and The World as History not The World as Nature reign supreme...
[ July 10, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
[/QUOTE]Agree 100%. I can't stand religious fanaticism personally. The fact that their are people who think they know god, speak to god and are living out god's plan are wackos, period. I do believe in a higher being/creator. I've never met him, might or might not ever meet him, but do believe he/she exists. If everyone would keep their selfish religious beliefs to their self, and stop jamming their beliefs down everyone's friggin throats, the world would be a better place, period. This goes for all fanatics whether from the Midwestern bible belt or radical Muslims in the Mid East. Get over it and live your friggin life. It's not religion itself, but the extreme positions people take on it. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Buster,you have taken an extreme position in your post regarding religion.In fact,it is the same kind of extreme position that you are putting down regarding religion. YOU are exactly the kind of person YOU are speaking of.You are trying to force your idea of freedom on Christians.You are wanting to limit their freedom of speech by saying they are 'cramming' their beliefs down peoples throats.It seems to me that YOU are trying to cram things down peoples throats.
If you dont agree with something or dont want to listen to it,walk away,change the channel or close the door.No one is twisting your arm or holding a gun to your head and making you listen to something.
I dont agree with certain religios groups,yet they try to speak to me sometimes.When they do so,I tell them no.End of subject.That was really hard now wasnt it?
Buster,you are the one pushing you opinion on people,you are the one calling Christians wackos.You are the one saying that Christians are selfish.
The reason that you are saying these things is because you don't agree with someone.
This doesn't sound much like a good citizen to me.
You seem to be one of many that want Christians to hide in a corner and never speak of their faith,yet you are allowed to put Christians down and call them fanatics and say whatever YOU want.
Does this sound right? No,it doesn't.
I along with millions of other Christians pray to God,this is talking to him.We believe that the Bible has the plan of how we should live our lives.We believe that by studying the Bible(Gods Word),we are better able to live a life that would be pleasing to God.We believe that reading,praying and studying are ways for us to know what direction in life God wants us to go.Does this make us crazy? No,it does not.For you to say the things you have is to judge me and others and it is wrong.You are saying in essence that we are to keep quiet and not speak.You are saying that Christians should not tell others what they believe.You are wanting to limit our freedom of speech.My friend,this is not FAIR nor is it right and you have no right to silence us.We have freedoms just as YOU do,in fact we have the VERY same freedoms that you have.Are we wackos? No,we are actually very intelligent.In fact,we are so intelligent that we realize and know that man did not just appear one day,but rather he was made by a Creator.That Creator is God.God expects all to worship and follow him.We know that all will not do so but he does want such.It all comes down to each individual,they have the choice of whether they follow God or not.
[ July 09, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]
Buster,you have taken an extreme position in your post regarding religion.In fact,it is the same kind of extreme position that you are putting down regarding religion. YOU are exactly the kind of person YOU are speaking of.You are trying to force your idea of freedom on Christians.You are wanting to limit their freedom of speech by saying they are 'cramming' their beliefs down peoples throats.It seems to me that YOU are trying to cram things down peoples throats.
If you dont agree with something or dont want to listen to it,walk away,change the channel or close the door.No one is twisting your arm or holding a gun to your head and making you listen to something.
I dont agree with certain religios groups,yet they try to speak to me sometimes.When they do so,I tell them no.End of subject.That was really hard now wasnt it?
Buster,you are the one pushing you opinion on people,you are the one calling Christians wackos.You are the one saying that Christians are selfish.
The reason that you are saying these things is because you don't agree with someone.
This doesn't sound much like a good citizen to me.
You seem to be one of many that want Christians to hide in a corner and never speak of their faith,yet you are allowed to put Christians down and call them fanatics and say whatever YOU want.
Does this sound right? No,it doesn't.
I along with millions of other Christians pray to God,this is talking to him.We believe that the Bible has the plan of how we should live our lives.We believe that by studying the Bible(Gods Word),we are better able to live a life that would be pleasing to God.We believe that reading,praying and studying are ways for us to know what direction in life God wants us to go.Does this make us crazy? No,it does not.For you to say the things you have is to judge me and others and it is wrong.You are saying in essence that we are to keep quiet and not speak.You are saying that Christians should not tell others what they believe.You are wanting to limit our freedom of speech.My friend,this is not FAIR nor is it right and you have no right to silence us.We have freedoms just as YOU do,in fact we have the VERY same freedoms that you have.Are we wackos? No,we are actually very intelligent.In fact,we are so intelligent that we realize and know that man did not just appear one day,but rather he was made by a Creator.That Creator is God.God expects all to worship and follow him.We know that all will not do so but he does want such.It all comes down to each individual,they have the choice of whether they follow God or not.
[ July 09, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]
XS650, actually, the faithful Christian church in Germany suffered great persecution by the Nazis.
Hitler forced the Lutheran Church there, which was tied to the state, under his control, and added Aryan worship, creating a demonic religion. A number of courageous and faithful Lutherans formed what was called the Confessing Church and went underground. The Gestapo closed down their seminary and churches when it discovered them, forced some of the leaders into exile, and imprisoned then later executed most of the others.
Only churches which submitted to the Nazi regime, and the Catholic church (which negotiated a compromise and laid low), were allowed to keep operating in Germany.
Hitler forced the Lutheran Church there, which was tied to the state, under his control, and added Aryan worship, creating a demonic religion. A number of courageous and faithful Lutherans formed what was called the Confessing Church and went underground. The Gestapo closed down their seminary and churches when it discovered them, forced some of the leaders into exile, and imprisoned then later executed most of the others.
Only churches which submitted to the Nazi regime, and the Catholic church (which negotiated a compromise and laid low), were allowed to keep operating in Germany.
We should all believe in something. I've never seen God and I don't know where he/she lives.....however, I do believe I am very insignificant in the grand scheme of things.......as such, I'm a believer (although I do question my beliefs on a daily basis)
The day we stop believing in something, then we open the door to just about everything....rape, murder, abuse......among many others.
The day we lose our moral values, then we would be finished as "human beings"
Lastly, it is obvious this guy above has a problem......NOT people who believe in God.
The day we stop believing in something, then we open the door to just about everything....rape, murder, abuse......among many others.
The day we lose our moral values, then we would be finished as "human beings"
Lastly, it is obvious this guy above has a problem......NOT people who believe in God.
"For it is a fool," the Psalmist declared, "Who siad in his heart, 'There is no God.' "
Last_Z, perhaps your not, but it sounds like your implying that atheists (or anyone who doesn't 'believe' the way you think they should) are horrible people.
Dave
Dave
This is kind of what I was getting at. People saying things like "Jesus said this" or "everyone should believe this" or "did you know god wants us to do this" etc. I say, no, no, and no. I will respectfully listen, but that is the extent of it. I saw the Passion. Great movie. I was raised Catholic. If I had to describe myself I'd say I'm an agnostic. I can't believe 100% that any one religion is right. Jesus may or may not be the son of god. When I look at things from a completely objective standpoint, it's a hard thing for me to swallow at times that he was the son of god. Religion is best when kept on a personel basis. There are many great religious people out their that want to do good for people. I have a lot of respect for them and don't have a problem with that. If you want to go in missions to help convert former Taliban people to christianity, thats your choice. I just keep an open mind and maybe one day I'll settle on something. For now, it's just to complicated and controversial.
I think we have discussed both sides of the issues, and while we are all friends, lets let it rest.
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