I didn't check to see if the site works, kind of in a hurry to get out of this office. Just noticed it on the web, but since your analyzing everything single thing I write, surely you could find some studies and link it for me. I really got to disagree with your statement about what people pay for has nothing to do with it working. Sounds to me that you basically saying that all chiro visitors are just throwing money away and going to them just to be going and current research is no better than a placebo effect. Show me something with merit to that affect. Plagarism???? Didn't know I was in english 101 again, never said I wrote it nor claimed anything to that affect.
Chiropractors neck manipulation.....safe?
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Originally Posted By: Schmoe
I didn't check to see if the site works, kind of in a hurry to get out of this office. Just noticed it on the web, but since your analyzing everything single thing I write, surely you could find some studies and link it for me.
Sorry, but I'm not going to do more work to address your argument than you are willing to do yourself. Guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Sounds to me that you basically saying that all chiro visitors are just throwing money away and going to them just to be going and current research is no better than a placebo effect.
Throwing money away? Not if it makes them happy.
Going just to be going? No. Going because they think it'll help.
No better than placebo is correct.
I didn't check to see if the site works, kind of in a hurry to get out of this office. Just noticed it on the web, but since your analyzing everything single thing I write, surely you could find some studies and link it for me.
Sorry, but I'm not going to do more work to address your argument than you are willing to do yourself. Guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Sounds to me that you basically saying that all chiro visitors are just throwing money away and going to them just to be going and current research is no better than a placebo effect.
Throwing money away? Not if it makes them happy.
Going just to be going? No. Going because they think it'll help.
No better than placebo is correct.
Wow... A link with "Studies" by Chiropractors trying to prove they are legit! Oh.. and NONE of the links work! hahaha Oh Yia... Makes me a believer!
Schmoe, I think you are very vocal, because you are either one of the few chiropratics has helped (and that's great!), and/or your wife/family member/friend IS a chiropractor, and you feel the continuous need to defend it!
There exists NO evidence that ANYTHING done by a chiropractor is better than placebo! None!.. Real studies (done by research firms, doctors, chiropractors etc)... And like I said before.. even Wiki agrees! hahaa Oh, and so do my few chiropractor friends, who studied biology and statistics in university... well.. after they've had a few too many to drink! haha
Chiropractics IS alternative medicine. And that is why most Chiropractors are linked with "Wellness Centres" nowadays, with holistic or Naturopathic Doctors, Yoga Centers.. etc.
If people demand it... Insurance may have to cave and provide it. Many European countries no longer allow health care coverage for chiropractic visits, and Canada has been trying to reduce coverage also. But like I've said, a very vocal minority, and the strong allegiance chiropractors have to each other has prevented this. Even in the USA.
Oh.. and my examples are there to try to show you, real medicine is based on studies, facts and EVIDENCE. Sorry you do not follow. And yes, there have been drugs that have produced negative side effects and have been pulled...but there are also THOUSANDS that allow people to live happier, more productive lengthier lives! (Oh.. and the average time it takes to study, produce and distribute a drug is usually around 20+ years....)
Schmoe, I think you are very vocal, because you are either one of the few chiropratics has helped (and that's great!), and/or your wife/family member/friend IS a chiropractor, and you feel the continuous need to defend it!
There exists NO evidence that ANYTHING done by a chiropractor is better than placebo! None!.. Real studies (done by research firms, doctors, chiropractors etc)... And like I said before.. even Wiki agrees! hahaa Oh, and so do my few chiropractor friends, who studied biology and statistics in university... well.. after they've had a few too many to drink! haha
Chiropractics IS alternative medicine. And that is why most Chiropractors are linked with "Wellness Centres" nowadays, with holistic or Naturopathic Doctors, Yoga Centers.. etc.
If people demand it... Insurance may have to cave and provide it. Many European countries no longer allow health care coverage for chiropractic visits, and Canada has been trying to reduce coverage also. But like I've said, a very vocal minority, and the strong allegiance chiropractors have to each other has prevented this. Even in the USA.
Oh.. and my examples are there to try to show you, real medicine is based on studies, facts and EVIDENCE. Sorry you do not follow. And yes, there have been drugs that have produced negative side effects and have been pulled...but there are also THOUSANDS that allow people to live happier, more productive lengthier lives! (Oh.. and the average time it takes to study, produce and distribute a drug is usually around 20+ years....)
Bad link....doesn't prove a thing. I can't believe that you think that chiropractic doesn't work, a placebo at best. On that same token of thousands of people live happier with medicine, the same can be said for seeing a chiropractor. I mean, come on. So if you had back problems, you'd take the traditional approach as I've mentioned before? You wouldn't at least once think or scout around to see if there is proven alternative method out there? You'd be comfortable if a surgeon said we need to operate and put your body through all that trauma? I guess I just don't see things like ya'll do. What I'm reading is that your looking for definitve proof and science is the only way to provide that mechanism. I don't believe in that. The same way as some people believe in ghosts or spirits. Just because you can't prove they are out there, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The same can be said about religion. This is off wiki:
There is a wide range of ways to measure treatment outcomes.[115] Chiropractic care, like all medical treatment, benefits from the placebo response.[116] It is hard to construct a trustworthy placebo for clinical trials of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT), as experts often disagree about whether a proposed placebo actually has no effect.[117] The efficacy of maintenance care in chiropractic is unknown.[19]
Here's one of the links that didn't work;
The Manga Report.
In 1993, the Ontario Ministry of Health funded a Canadian research project to study if chiropractic could help lower the costs of work-related injuries or improve the rehabilitation of disabled or injured workers.
This study specifically explored the effectiveness of chiropractic management of low back pain. Based on a historical review of the most significant clinical studies, the panel of researchers concluded that the approaches employed by chiropractic doctors were more effective than traditional forms of treatment. In fact, they found the most commonly used medical treatments have questionable value.
Very Persuasive Evidence
Besides revealing that chiropractic patients were able to return to work more quickly than those who received traditional treatment, chiropractic patients reported a high level of satisfaction with their care.
One of the most persuasive findings was the issue of safety. The study concluded that chiropractic care is safer than medical management of low back pain.
Based on the evidence, the researchers recommended that chiropractic services be fully covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Further, they concluded that chiropractic doctors should be engaged at the highest levels to assess policy and review standards and care recommendations for workers with back injuries.
The AHCPR Findings.
The results published in 1994 by the United States Agency for Health Care Policy Research, reviewed the many treatments for acute low back pain in adults. The panel consisted of medical doctors, osteopaths, nurses, physical therapists, and others familiar with the treatment of low back pain. The results of their five-year study concluded that relief “can be accomplished most safely with nonprescription medication and/or spinal manipulation.”
After reviewing the many treatments for low back pain, the panel recommended spinal manipulation.
Perhaps more significant were treatments found to be ineffective and of unproven value. The panel found no evidence of benefit from physical therapy, massage, traction, ultra-sound, laser treatment, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, or biofeedback techniques.
What Works & What Doesn’t
The panel screened over one hundred published studies relating to spinal manipulation. Using the criteria of symptomatic and functional improvement, the researchers concluded that spinal manipulation is helpful for patients with acute low back pain.
More invasive procedures were dismissed as well. There was little evidence to support the use of injections, muscle relaxers, steroids, acupuncture, or early surgical intervention. The panel found that even prolonged bed rest (more than 4 days), should be avoided.
Upon review of countless controlled randomized clinical trials, the panel concluded that restoration of spinal biomechanics, using methods like those used by chiropractic doctors, to be helpful and highly recommended.
The Virginia Assessment.
Chiropractic Care was shown to help avoid or reduce the incidence of other more expensive forms of treatment.
This 1992 study was conducted to determine the value of including chiropractic in Virginia’s mandated health care coverage. The research was conducted by a professor of economics and preventive medicine. Because chiropractic care could help avoid more costly types of treatment, it was concluded that mandating chiropractic coverage could actually reduce costs.
Chiropractic Compared Favorably
The researchers conducted a thorough investigation between chiropractic and traditional medical treatment. While their primary focus was on the costs associated with including chiropractic coverage, they explored safety issues, efficacy, wage loss, and treatment frequency. Before reaching their conclusions they reviewed 35 different comparisons.
A concern explored in their research was whether expanding coverage to include chiropractic would increase costs to the state. This concern seemed to unfounded.
The evidence they present shows that chiropractic care provides substantial benefits at a relatively low cost. They concluded that adding chiropractic benefits would have a very small impact on health insurance expenditures and might actually lower overall health care costs.
Here's another one from Britain:
The British Study.
A three year British study involved 741 patients. Roughly half received traditional medical treatment and the other half received chiropractic care. The 1990 report observed that patients seen by chiropractic doctors were significantly better within six months and remained so during the two year follow-up period. This, and other evidence, led researchers to conclude that chiropractic care compares more favorably than traditional outpatient hospital treatment.
Long Term Results
Published in the prestigious British Medical Journal, this study is especially important due to its size and independent nature. Besides revealing the effectiveness of chiropractic in the short-term, the lasting effect of treatment two and three years later was significant.
Researchers used the Oswestry Pain Disability Questionnaire and the results of objective range of motion testing to confirm their findings. The patients progress was measured by their ability to walk, lift, sit, and conduct their lives. Not only did the chiropractic patients experience better results for a longer period of time, they missed less time from work.
Based upon patients consulting chiropractic doctors instead of receiving hospital treatment, the researchers concluded that reduced absenteeism could save millions in lost production each year. Because of its effectiveness and long-term benefits, they recommended that including chiropractic in the British National Health Service should be considered
I could go on and on, but your statement that chiropractors are basically quacks and what they do is quackery, is simply ludicrist at best. There is substantial proof in professional studies and in the treatment themselves. The proof, is out there. But all in all, I can see that this will go no where. I got a little bent out of shape at first, and for that I apologize. We all have our opinions. I will repect those that do not believe in chiropractic treatments. After all, this is America!
There is a wide range of ways to measure treatment outcomes.[115] Chiropractic care, like all medical treatment, benefits from the placebo response.[116] It is hard to construct a trustworthy placebo for clinical trials of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT), as experts often disagree about whether a proposed placebo actually has no effect.[117] The efficacy of maintenance care in chiropractic is unknown.[19]
Here's one of the links that didn't work;
The Manga Report.
In 1993, the Ontario Ministry of Health funded a Canadian research project to study if chiropractic could help lower the costs of work-related injuries or improve the rehabilitation of disabled or injured workers.
This study specifically explored the effectiveness of chiropractic management of low back pain. Based on a historical review of the most significant clinical studies, the panel of researchers concluded that the approaches employed by chiropractic doctors were more effective than traditional forms of treatment. In fact, they found the most commonly used medical treatments have questionable value.
Very Persuasive Evidence
Besides revealing that chiropractic patients were able to return to work more quickly than those who received traditional treatment, chiropractic patients reported a high level of satisfaction with their care.
One of the most persuasive findings was the issue of safety. The study concluded that chiropractic care is safer than medical management of low back pain.
Based on the evidence, the researchers recommended that chiropractic services be fully covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Further, they concluded that chiropractic doctors should be engaged at the highest levels to assess policy and review standards and care recommendations for workers with back injuries.
The AHCPR Findings.
The results published in 1994 by the United States Agency for Health Care Policy Research, reviewed the many treatments for acute low back pain in adults. The panel consisted of medical doctors, osteopaths, nurses, physical therapists, and others familiar with the treatment of low back pain. The results of their five-year study concluded that relief “can be accomplished most safely with nonprescription medication and/or spinal manipulation.”
After reviewing the many treatments for low back pain, the panel recommended spinal manipulation.
Perhaps more significant were treatments found to be ineffective and of unproven value. The panel found no evidence of benefit from physical therapy, massage, traction, ultra-sound, laser treatment, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, or biofeedback techniques.
What Works & What Doesn’t
The panel screened over one hundred published studies relating to spinal manipulation. Using the criteria of symptomatic and functional improvement, the researchers concluded that spinal manipulation is helpful for patients with acute low back pain.
More invasive procedures were dismissed as well. There was little evidence to support the use of injections, muscle relaxers, steroids, acupuncture, or early surgical intervention. The panel found that even prolonged bed rest (more than 4 days), should be avoided.
Upon review of countless controlled randomized clinical trials, the panel concluded that restoration of spinal biomechanics, using methods like those used by chiropractic doctors, to be helpful and highly recommended.
The Virginia Assessment.
Chiropractic Care was shown to help avoid or reduce the incidence of other more expensive forms of treatment.
This 1992 study was conducted to determine the value of including chiropractic in Virginia’s mandated health care coverage. The research was conducted by a professor of economics and preventive medicine. Because chiropractic care could help avoid more costly types of treatment, it was concluded that mandating chiropractic coverage could actually reduce costs.
Chiropractic Compared Favorably
The researchers conducted a thorough investigation between chiropractic and traditional medical treatment. While their primary focus was on the costs associated with including chiropractic coverage, they explored safety issues, efficacy, wage loss, and treatment frequency. Before reaching their conclusions they reviewed 35 different comparisons.
A concern explored in their research was whether expanding coverage to include chiropractic would increase costs to the state. This concern seemed to unfounded.
The evidence they present shows that chiropractic care provides substantial benefits at a relatively low cost. They concluded that adding chiropractic benefits would have a very small impact on health insurance expenditures and might actually lower overall health care costs.
Here's another one from Britain:
The British Study.
A three year British study involved 741 patients. Roughly half received traditional medical treatment and the other half received chiropractic care. The 1990 report observed that patients seen by chiropractic doctors were significantly better within six months and remained so during the two year follow-up period. This, and other evidence, led researchers to conclude that chiropractic care compares more favorably than traditional outpatient hospital treatment.
Long Term Results
Published in the prestigious British Medical Journal, this study is especially important due to its size and independent nature. Besides revealing the effectiveness of chiropractic in the short-term, the lasting effect of treatment two and three years later was significant.
Researchers used the Oswestry Pain Disability Questionnaire and the results of objective range of motion testing to confirm their findings. The patients progress was measured by their ability to walk, lift, sit, and conduct their lives. Not only did the chiropractic patients experience better results for a longer period of time, they missed less time from work.
Based upon patients consulting chiropractic doctors instead of receiving hospital treatment, the researchers concluded that reduced absenteeism could save millions in lost production each year. Because of its effectiveness and long-term benefits, they recommended that including chiropractic in the British National Health Service should be considered
I could go on and on, but your statement that chiropractors are basically quacks and what they do is quackery, is simply ludicrist at best. There is substantial proof in professional studies and in the treatment themselves. The proof, is out there. But all in all, I can see that this will go no where. I got a little bent out of shape at first, and for that I apologize. We all have our opinions. I will repect those that do not believe in chiropractic treatments. After all, this is America!
Find a good physical therapist, do as he tells you, and get good massage every other week for a while.
Going to a chiropractor is like asking Alan Alda what to do when you have a cold. They can both act like doctors, but they are equally full of [censored].
Going to a chiropractor is like asking Alan Alda what to do when you have a cold. They can both act like doctors, but they are equally full of [censored].
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
What I'm reading is that your looking for definitve proof and science is the only way to provide that mechanism. I don't believe in that. The same way as some people believe in ghosts or spirits. Just because you can't prove they are out there, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Are you seriously interested in a back-and-forth about this? I've been thinking that you were just lashing out because you didn't like what we were saying. However, if you're actually willing to go out and do some research then I think there can be a healthy, productive discussion on this topic.
If you are willing, then you will first need to be brought up to speed on a few basic principles. I'd be happy to help, but only if you're interested. Let me know.
What I'm reading is that your looking for definitve proof and science is the only way to provide that mechanism. I don't believe in that. The same way as some people believe in ghosts or spirits. Just because you can't prove they are out there, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Are you seriously interested in a back-and-forth about this? I've been thinking that you were just lashing out because you didn't like what we were saying. However, if you're actually willing to go out and do some research then I think there can be a healthy, productive discussion on this topic.
If you are willing, then you will first need to be brought up to speed on a few basic principles. I'd be happy to help, but only if you're interested. Let me know.
As you can tell, I'm my minds pretty made up on this subject, so I don't think that will change anytime soon. Just ask my wife... This is one of those kinds of things that either you believe or you don't. There is evidence on both sides of the fence, but it really wouldn't matter much to me. Obviously I'm a firm believer in this "occult," as some call it. But as I said ealier, to each his own.
As stated it depends on the cracker.
The guy I had first actually made my neck worse.....the current chiropractor is excellent! And yes he does my neck. Scary as [censored], but he has great skills.
SNAAAAAPPP!!
The guy I had first actually made my neck worse.....the current chiropractor is excellent! And yes he does my neck. Scary as [censored], but he has great skills.
SNAAAAAPPP!!
... more like the unproverbial your wife/brother/sister/cousin is a chiropractor and you are very vocal with NO REAL proof.. no REAL studies... REAL Statistics.. p-values... power.. REAL studies...
There exists NO studies that show, mathematically, statistically that chiropractics work!
Saying the chiro group showed improvement over traditional methods means NOTHING... If traditional methods showed 45/100 patients improved, while the chiro group showed 46/100 improved... that is NOT significant i.e. it occurred "by chance", and therefore not valid. That's why these "studies" never list actual numbers.. because statistically they will show that CHIRO IS NO BETTER THAN PLACEBO.
There exists NO studies that show, mathematically, statistically that chiropractics work!
Saying the chiro group showed improvement over traditional methods means NOTHING... If traditional methods showed 45/100 patients improved, while the chiro group showed 46/100 improved... that is NOT significant i.e. it occurred "by chance", and therefore not valid. That's why these "studies" never list actual numbers.. because statistically they will show that CHIRO IS NO BETTER THAN PLACEBO.
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don't trust chiros anymore. I went to one some years ago; he messed me up so bad after ONE visit I spent a whole afternoon having to put myself back where I was; twisting my back, stretching, etc until the tingling and numbness went away. he wanted to set up this long drawn out regimen of visits 3 days a week for like a year.
I've since learned that I can fix myself w/ good stretching and exercise. we got a better bed also and I haven't had any real problems for years.
I've since learned that I can fix myself w/ good stretching and exercise. we got a better bed also and I haven't had any real problems for years.
Nick...are you blind? I posted REAL studies above. You definition of what is "real" can be reversed said of that of chiropract work. There are plenty more studies out there that support the benefits of spinal manipulations. So, with that same logic, "improvements" that were caused by medicine mean nothing as well either. And no, no family or friend connection to a chiropractor at all. I've just seen from my own eyes that these treatments to work on certain cases. I wouldn't see a chiropractor for a hernia....
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
I wouldn't see a chiropractor for a hernia....
For a Hernia, you are right, it is too late.
But to prevent having one, yes, a chiro is the person to see.
Schmoe, it seems it is the same for chiropracty than for oil: You cannot change people's mind about it when they decided they are holding the truth. Whatever facts you can throw at them, they will still come back with something.
You know and I know that chiropracty works when it is done by competent people and can save you from more extrem allopathy treatments.
Now, you'd better let other people think what they want to think and move on on more important things.
Have a great time.
I wouldn't see a chiropractor for a hernia....
For a Hernia, you are right, it is too late.
But to prevent having one, yes, a chiro is the person to see.
Schmoe, it seems it is the same for chiropracty than for oil: You cannot change people's mind about it when they decided they are holding the truth. Whatever facts you can throw at them, they will still come back with something.
You know and I know that chiropracty works when it is done by competent people and can save you from more extrem allopathy treatments.
Now, you'd better let other people think what they want to think and move on on more important things.
Have a great time.
Your absolutely right. I forgot about the past arguments on which oil was best and two of my all time favorites....thick or thin oil/to let an engine warm up or not..... I realized after long, LONG hours of posting that no matter what, mindsets aren't going to change. I told myself that I wasn't going to go through all that again, but yet, here I am. Thanks for reminding me of that, must be my old age creeping up on me. Speaking of old age, I guess seeing a chiropractor had nothing to do with Jerry Rice's longevity in the NFL. You can't argue with results, but maybe some can. Seeing is believing and I've seen it work and I'll continue doing so.
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