Can thicker oil prevent rocker arm failures in Pentastar 3.6 V6?
- Thread starter easym
- Start date
I don't think anyone disagrees with this premise of keeping thinner oil cool can keep the viscosity and film thickness up, which is the main thing that keeps moving parts separated. Got a link to where you say you were "ravaged" by making a similar statement?
A difference of only 2 deg C inside the journal bearing isn't going to effect the MOFT in the bearing as much as the starting viscosity and HTHS of the oil used - and starting with a higher viscosity in the first place is going to give you that. Not to mention that you have to consider the effect on MOFT due to journal bearing rotational speed - MOFT gets larger with increased RPM due to the bearing trying to center itself more on the journal. A thicker oil would actually matter more in terms of resulting MOFT at very low RPM/high load "lugging" conditions vs a thinner oil because you will lose some MOFT due to bearing rotational speed. Low RPM engine "lugging" under high loads with thinner oil can be more detrimental to journal bearings than lugging with thicker oil. Not good to "lug" engines no matter what, so it's something I try to avoid.As higher grade oils have more internal resistance they heat up more in the bearing area. Whereas a 20 and 30 grade oil will have a different viscosity at 90C they may have the same viscosity when exiting the bearing as the thinner, 20 grade oil will heat up less:
Even though 0W-30 heats up 1.5C more than 0W-20 at 4000 RPM, the fact is the 0W-30 will still have more MOFT than the 0W-20 because the viscosity will still be higher even if it's 1.5C higher inside the bearing. At 2000 RPM the difference in bearing oil temperature rise is even more benign. The MOFT is what matters to protect the journal bearing's moving surfaces from contacting and rubbing on each other. Why run on the ragged edge when it's easy to obtain some MOFT headroom.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,118
The answer to both questions that the thread-starter asked is "UNKNOWN".
What is known is that some owners are experiencing issues.
Whatever those owners are doing is NOT working. So, why not try something else.
1. Keep oil level checked regularly and full always. This seems to be the biggest issue with the typical lazy consumer. Popping the hood and using the dipstick is beyond rocket science.
2. Change oil/filter more often than recommended. Pick a different time/mileage/OLM% that might keep the engine cleaner and better lubed.
3. Use a better oil filter. If a synthetic media filter is available, use it over the OE filter. And, always change it at every interval.
4. If the issues occurs frequently or regularly with owners sticking to the recommended grade, then don't use the recommended grade. If your climate/weather allows, try a thicker or narrower grade. Stick with full synthetic oil if it isn't required already. Go thicker or higher on the HTHS ladder.
To think that nothing can change the wear rate of a component, whether engineered or manufactured improperly, is foolish. That is akin to saying that every oil, or grade, or filter brand, or filter type are all the same. They aren't and many of pick based on too many variables.
If you have this 3.6L engine, you can either put your hands in your pocket and do nothing. Or, you can TRY to do something rebellious and see what happens.
I run 5w40 and 10w40 in engines that call for 0w20, 5w20, or 5w30. I am not experiencing the common long term issues that so many have on various forums. I use full synthetic filters when available and sometimes the midline blends. I don't use OE filters or OE oil grades that are pushed ad infinitum. I don't run blindly to 10k miles or 0% on the OLM. I also don't let a UOA determine my interval since it doesn't show you what is going on in the engine until its too late. I don't use conventional or blends. I do change my oil/filter together always, and usually at an interval that insults greenies that don't have a mechanical clue. Sorry, but none of my cars will ever have a 7500 or 10k mile change. I also mod for longevity. Something as simple as an oil drainplug magnet, filter mag, inline ATF/PSF filters.... can help. Magnet buildup differences among grades or brands are eye openers and worth tracking for long term ownership.
Remember this.... what good is it to over maintain the engine oil/filter and ignore all other so-called almost lifetime or never looked at fluids. So, don't run the ATF or coolant or diff fluids or xfer case fluid or psf or bf or whatever forever. Don't forget toptier fuel or the couple bottles a year of PEA/PIBA based FI cleaners.
What is known is that some owners are experiencing issues.
Whatever those owners are doing is NOT working. So, why not try something else.
1. Keep oil level checked regularly and full always. This seems to be the biggest issue with the typical lazy consumer. Popping the hood and using the dipstick is beyond rocket science.
2. Change oil/filter more often than recommended. Pick a different time/mileage/OLM% that might keep the engine cleaner and better lubed.
3. Use a better oil filter. If a synthetic media filter is available, use it over the OE filter. And, always change it at every interval.
4. If the issues occurs frequently or regularly with owners sticking to the recommended grade, then don't use the recommended grade. If your climate/weather allows, try a thicker or narrower grade. Stick with full synthetic oil if it isn't required already. Go thicker or higher on the HTHS ladder.
To think that nothing can change the wear rate of a component, whether engineered or manufactured improperly, is foolish. That is akin to saying that every oil, or grade, or filter brand, or filter type are all the same. They aren't and many of pick based on too many variables.
If you have this 3.6L engine, you can either put your hands in your pocket and do nothing. Or, you can TRY to do something rebellious and see what happens.
I run 5w40 and 10w40 in engines that call for 0w20, 5w20, or 5w30. I am not experiencing the common long term issues that so many have on various forums. I use full synthetic filters when available and sometimes the midline blends. I don't use OE filters or OE oil grades that are pushed ad infinitum. I don't run blindly to 10k miles or 0% on the OLM. I also don't let a UOA determine my interval since it doesn't show you what is going on in the engine until its too late. I don't use conventional or blends. I do change my oil/filter together always, and usually at an interval that insults greenies that don't have a mechanical clue. Sorry, but none of my cars will ever have a 7500 or 10k mile change. I also mod for longevity. Something as simple as an oil drainplug magnet, filter mag, inline ATF/PSF filters.... can help. Magnet buildup differences among grades or brands are eye openers and worth tracking for long term ownership.
Remember this.... what good is it to over maintain the engine oil/filter and ignore all other so-called almost lifetime or never looked at fluids. So, don't run the ATF or coolant or diff fluids or xfer case fluid or psf or bf or whatever forever. Don't forget toptier fuel or the couple bottles a year of PEA/PIBA based FI cleaners.
"Got a link to where you say you were "ravaged" by making a similar statement?"
Ali
Motul 0W8 Has Same Viscosity as a 40 Grade Oil
...At around 165F. The viscosity should be around 15 and the HTHS should be around 3.5 (plus or minus). My 812 SF generally runs with an oil temperature of 165F while driving at 80 MPH. Ferrari owners manuals often specify a target oil pressure of 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM as being ideal. This oil...
bobistheoilguy.com
Ali
Sweet! I'd like to see how that setup looks.
Did you use the Doorman aluminum housing? I had to google the baxter assembly, but I do recall seeing that posted on another site. Pricey little bugger at ~$379 per their website and the Doorman assembly isn't cheap either, but at $500+ all in, it's still cheaper than having a shop install another OEM plastic style. I've heard of shops charging in excess of $1000 for that job.
What's so "ravaging" about what was said there?
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2020
- Messages
- 2,412
People don't like being wrong and called out about it
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2021
- Messages
- 5,387
There sure are a lot of good posts and information in that thread. Not limited to.. 12, 22, 27, and this one. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...cosity-as-a-40-grade-oil.350093/#post-5995323
This is post #22 there and it is gold.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,118
Pentastar 3.2L and 3.6L 2014 to present. MS-201-BK Cartridge to Spin-on Adapter - Baxter Performance
Pentastar Cartridge to Spin-On Oil filter adapter fits 2014 + 3.2 and 3.6-liter Pentastar engines. Cartridge Filters have no anti-drainback valve. This product provides faster oil pressure at startup by keeping the upper oil system flooded. The adapter contains full flow check valve and unique...
www.baxterperformanceusa.com
Pentastar 3.6L 2014 and newer MR-201-BK Cartridge to Remote Adapter - Baxter Performance
Coming Soon! New Mopar Cartridge to Remote Oil filter adapter fits 2014 + 3.6-liter Pentastar engines. Provides faster oil pressure at startup by keeping the upper oil system flooded. -10AM male fittings included. All seals made of Viton. Made and patented in USA. See Suggested Oil Filter...
www.baxterperformanceusa.com
Gold Plug Magnetic Drain Plug MP-02T
Uses a 13mm wrench. Need additional washers? Order – SW-02 14mm-1.5 Thread
goldplug.com
Engine Oil Pan - Heavy-Duty Cast Aluminum
Engine Oil Pan 3.6L JK 12-18 Engine Oil Pan - Heavy Duty Cast Aluminum – 3.6L Pentastar Whether your stock stamped steel oil pan has been damaged, rusted through, or you want a simple bolt-on upgrade with better performance, the PPE Cast Aluminum Oil Pan
ppepower.com
Sure are pretty mods.
Yep, I bought it at the recommendation of Motorcity Mechanic after checking out his videos. As a Mopar tech, I took his word for it. It was a little more work for me because my JK is a 2012, so it has a slightly different oil cooler/filter adapter. So I actually managed to find a guy who was parting out a 2014 JK and got my hands on that oil cooler. I was then able to transplant the plate cooler portion to the Dorman aluminum housing and installed without any issue. After that, the Baxter unit installs easily into the aperture on the upgraded housing. The whole thing isn't super cheap, but my thought is it's worth it to have that future-proofed on my Jeep.
I ordered the housing from RockAuto along with some other necessary parts and did the work myself, which saved a lot of money. The cool part is the Dorman housing comes with new gaskets, including for the intake plenums, which is handy, so you don't have to buy those too. I don't know how much that thing goes for now, but it seemed pretty well made. My biggest problem was RockAuto literally sending me everything else I ordered for the job EXCEPT for the housing, which is a big problem. It was kind of a PITA because I had to prove I wasn't lying so they'd send me the unit I never received. But that's more on RockAuto than anyone else.
I've always enjoyed his channel.
It seems like more and more shops are catching on to replace the oil filter/cooler housing with the Doorman aluminum replacement. That's a great thing. Hopefully more aftermarket companies will make these as well. I guess now we wait and see if there's any other weak spots on the aluminum replacement, like O-rings or the cooler assembly itself.
I kept my old unit just in case, but I feel somewhat confident (hopeful?) that I won't have to dig into the vee of this engine for a while. I suspect the O-rings have about as much chance as failing as the originals, since I'm guessing they're Fel-Pro products. As far as the housing goes, hopefully the casting is nice and solid. *knock on aluminum*
"Got a link to where you say you were "ravaged" by making a similar statement?"
bobistheoilguy.com
Ali
With the oil that you are now running in your car now, how would it hold up and what temp would your oil be running if you ran your car like the white Lamborghini in Cannonball Run? It is reasonable to say that if you were running your car on a road course that you would be using a thicker oil.
Motul 0W8 Has Same Viscosity as a 40 Grade Oil
...At around 165F. The viscosity should be around 15 and the HTHS should be around 3.5 (plus or minus). My 812 SF generally runs with an oil temperature of 165F while driving at 80 MPH. Ferrari owners manuals often specify a target oil pressure of 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM as being ideal. This oil...bobistheoilguy.com
Ali
With the oil that you are now running in your car now, how would it hold up and what temp would your oil be running if you ran your car like the white Lamborghini in Cannonball Run? It is reasonable to say that if you were running your car on a road course that you would be using a thicker oil.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Not to mention many of the additives require heat to activate.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2021
- Messages
- 5,387
It seems like the oil temperature of 165°F is not reasonable in the real world in normal circumstances, and is not hot enough to match that the oil would actually be measured at. Very simple there.
My Enzo Ferrari of 15 years and 6,000 miles had an engine out service due to an oil seal leak. The innards were well inspected and measured by Ferrari of Tampa Bay. The owner, who owns multiple Ferrari dealerships, liked what he saw. He bought it from me. It (the engine) was said to be in the best condition of all the engines they have seen before. It was run on 20 and 30 grade oils despite having a spec of 10W60 grade oil. Oil anaylisys of all my high powered cars using low viscosity oils is well documented.
They pulled all the rods, crank and camshafts to measure all the bearing clearances? That would require a total engine teardown.
Similar threads
