Can a dealer determine what weight oil your using?

[DuckRyder]

It goes back at least to the TDI days.

Used to be Casrols website called markers out as a feature of the “Professional” line. Also in the TDI days you knew if the dealer wasn’t pouring it out of a gold bottle it was the wrong stuff…

 

[kschachn]

Yes, VW 508 oils.

Yes so it could be detected if they were used in an engine where the lower HT/HS may cause damage.

Damage, the thing a warranty does not cover.

 

[DuckRyder]

Yes so it could be detected if they were used in an engine where the lower HT/HS could cause damage.

Damage, the thing a warranty does not cover.

Cite your source.

 

[kschachn]

Cite you source.

There were many threads on the introduction of 508 00 oil and some contained the initial statements VW issued about the approval. Find them you yourself.

Or are you seriously trying to make the argument that using an oil with a higher HT/HS causes damage? Or that 508 00 oil is somehow required for proper engine operation? Or that something about that approval protects the engine? Or that VW somehow makes the use of the approval a warranty requirement?

It gets downright humorous sometimes. Thank goodness my VW dealer wasn’t that ignorant and used 504 00 in my Tiguan at my request for the free changes.

Physics still rules. Too low of a film thickness causes damage, not the other way around. And warranty is not predicated on grade. It’s predicated on damage.

 

[Vercingetorix]

So where can one buy the VW 508 tracer package?

 

[panthermike]

I have a new 2023 Ram, and it calls for 0w20. Previous year Rams call for 5w20 or 5w30. I'd like to run the 5w30 and not have to worry about the warranty.

I really don't think you'll have an issue. However I've had a couple of vehicles where I wanted to do the same. My solution was to buy the cheapest approved 0w20 I could find and gave it away/sold it. Then I used 5w30 in the car and still had "documentation" of 0w20. Sounds like a lot but didn't want any trouble.

 

[OVERKILL]

Cite your source.

I think he's referencing this:

Post in thread 'VW 508 Spec-0w20'

Feb 20, 2018

https://www.fuchs.com/fileadmin/schmiers..._00_02-2017.pdf


FUCHS

Mannheim, February 2017
Introduction of the new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 engine oil for the new
VW specifications VW 508 00 / 509 00
General information
Specifications 508 00 and 509 00 concern the so-called “VW Blue Oil” for the latest
generations of engines from VW. The specifications demand an oil in viscosity class SAE
0W-20 with a reduced HTHS viscosity of at least 2.6 mPa.s. This allows...

• wemay

• 

Mannheim, February 2017
Introduction of the new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 engine oil for the new
VW specifications VW 508 00 / 509 00
General information
Specifications 508 00 and 509 00 concern the so-called “VW Blue Oil” for the latest
generations of engines from VW. The specifications demand an oil in viscosity class SAE
0W-20 with a reduced HTHS viscosity of at least 2.6 mPa.s. This allows fuel savings of
at least 4% to be achieved. The first of these engines have been available on the market
since the end of 2015. Specifications VW 508 00 and 509 00 are not backwards
compatible with previous VW specifications. In contrast, specification VW 504 00 can be
used wherever older VW specifications for petrol engines are required, for example. For
diesel engines, specification VW 507 00 can also be used for the corresponding older
diesel specifications. R5 and V10 TDI engines up to model year 2006 are the exception.
These engines must be filled with an engine oil according to VW 506 01 (TITAN
Supersyn LONGLIFE PLUS SAE 0W-30). For VW engines that require VW 508 00 / 509
00, engine oils with specification VW 504 00 / 507 00 can currently be used as an option.
TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20
The new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 was approved by VW in accordance with
VW 508 00 / 509 00 and is now available to dealerships and workshops.

 

[Shel_B]

For VW engines that require VW 508 00 / 509
00, engine oils with specification VW 504 00 / 507 00 can currently be used as an option.
TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20

Gee, if you can use a heavier oil in VW engines, might that not also be possible in other companies' engines?

 

[DuckRyder]

Gee, if you can use a heavier oil in VW engines, might that not also be possible in other companies' engines?

We’ve been down this road repeatedly . Atleast in the us the owners manual for a VW is very specific, it says “required” it says you can add no more than “x” of an alternate product.

Not to say it would not be fine, but at which point you have a failure (highly unlikely) and someone decides to make a issue of it (also highly unlikely) you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Go into it fully informed.

 

[TiGeo]

Gee, if you can use a heavier oil in VW engines, might that not also be possible in other companies' engines?

Sure, it's been discussed here so much, going to a higher grade oil isn't hurting a thing. However, the discussion surrounding a warranty claim for a blown engine where the dealer requests and finds out that you used an oil grade/spec/approval/whatever not shown in the manual is a separate discussion that regardless of what anyone here speculates or thinks, will have an unknown outcome and could cause drama on the warranty claim end. It's a risk assessment....how critical is a nealry 100% warranty preserving experience to the owner? Super important? Follow the manual to a "T" including dealer oil changes. If you can accept a small risk, then do what you want w/r to oil used/OCI.

Risk = likelihood x severity (we called this "consequence" in my former work safety world) where the likelihood of a engine failure AND warranty denial for using a grade higher oil as the cause/reason for denial but keeping good records is "very unlikely" (b/c there are multiple things here that have to happen namely a failure in the first place which itself is very unlikely) but the severity (financial) is "moderate" (I'll assume $10K for a new engine installed and this isn't a bankrupting situation for most folks) from the loss of warranty coverage. This combines for a risk of "med-low" on this matrix. The issue here would be that you shoudl always use "the most plausible worst case scenario with risk-mediating controls in place" so that you don't fall into the "meteor falling" trap which is to say that folks tend to always think of the craziest thing that could happen vs. the most likely....could probably say the severity is "minor" dropping the overall risk to "low" b/c IF you are caring for the engine like most good BITOGers using high quality oil etc., the damage would be minimal but it's tough b/c this whole dicussion is mostly what-if of something that is so unlikely (using what oil you want and the engine fails for whatever reason not related to the oil and the dealer/OEM deny your claim) that I can't believe I just typed this

 

[D1dad]

If someone is really that worried about having an issue with a warranty claim then they should just get all of the oil changes done at the dealer. There’s no way they can deny any claim if you do that (and follow the recommended OCI of course)

That being said I have never done that with any of my new cars, I have always done my own oil changes. I have often asked the dealer when buying the car and they assured me that as long as I kept the receipts for the oil that there would not be a problem. Luckily I have never had an engine problem ever in 39 years of driving.

My master tech said the same thing. We even discussed how awful the goher/nissan filters are and he completely understands why I won’t use them. If my issue was local, and not 500 miles away then I’d be in the clear. He’s always commenting on how immaculate and maintained my cars are. If it happened on a family vacay then who knows how much I’d have to go through.

 

[kschachn]

We’ve been down this road repeatedly . Atleast in the us the owners manual for a VW is very specific, it says “required” it says you can add no more than “x” of an alternate product.

Not to say it would not be fine, but at which point you have a failure (highly unlikely) and someone decides to make a issue of it (also highly unlikely) you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Go into it fully informed.

And we’ve been down this road just as repeatedly. You’re disingenuous if you really don’t understand why that language is in the manual. It mirrors what an EPA letter states is required of the automaker as part of their CAFE award.

And examples of those letters have been posted here as well.

Go into it fully informed.

 

[OVERKILL]

Gee, if you can use a heavier oil in VW engines, might that not also be possible in other companies' engines?

The point appears to be two-fold:
1. The 508 00/509 00 oil is intentionally dyed blue
2. The 508 00/509 00 oils are NOT backwards compatible and cannot be used where other specifications are indicated

So yes, you can use heavier 504 00/507 00 oils in place of 508 00/509 00 without issue, but you cannot use 508 00/509 00 oils where other specifications are indicated. @kschachn's point is that the oil is dyed blue so it is identifiable in the event that is done.

 

[kschachn]

I think he's referencing this:

Post in thread 'VW 508 Spec-0w20'

Feb 20, 2018

https://www.fuchs.com/fileadmin/schmiers..._00_02-2017.pdf


FUCHS

Mannheim, February 2017
Introduction of the new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 engine oil for the new
VW specifications VW 508 00 / 509 00
General information
Specifications 508 00 and 509 00 concern the so-called “VW Blue Oil” for the latest
generations of engines from VW. The specifications demand an oil in viscosity class SAE
0W-20 with a reduced HTHS viscosity of at least 2.6 mPa.s. This allows...

• wemay

• 

Mannheim, February 2017
Introduction of the new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 engine oil for the new
VW specifications VW 508 00 / 509 00
General information
Specifications 508 00 and 509 00 concern the so-called “VW Blue Oil” for the latest
generations of engines from VW. The specifications demand an oil in viscosity class SAE
0W-20 with a reduced HTHS viscosity of at least 2.6 mPa.s. This allows fuel savings of
at least 4% to be achieved. The first of these engines have been available on the market
since the end of 2015. Specifications VW 508 00 and 509 00 are not backwards
compatible with previous VW specifications. In contrast, specification VW 504 00 can be
used wherever older VW specifications for petrol engines are required, for example. For
diesel engines, specification VW 507 00 can also be used for the corresponding older
diesel specifications. R5 and V10 TDI engines up to model year 2006 are the exception.
These engines must be filled with an engine oil according to VW 506 01 (TITAN
Supersyn LONGLIFE PLUS SAE 0W-30). For VW engines that require VW 508 00 / 509
00, engine oils with specification VW 504 00 / 507 00 can currently be used as an option.
TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20
The new TITAN GT1 LONGLIFE IV SAE 0W-20 was approved by VW in accordance with
VW 508 00 / 509 00 and is now available to dealerships and workshops.

Next up we will be told that 504 00 oil will shear off the drive gear from the electric oil pump. You know - the one that senses your geographic area and then adapts for a different approval in Mexico.

All of which has been postulated here lest you think I’m making it up.

 

[CKN]

Even in a warranty situation I think it would be very rare that they would do a UOA. Once they tear down the engine they are looking for evidence of severe neglect (which would show itself with sludge in there)

It has been stated on the Silverado/Sierra truck forums by GM Techs in certain instances when a motor replacement is needed-GM will request a UOA. What are they looking for? Who knows.....

 

[LowMilesLesabre]

Didn't Volswagen do that with some of their approved oils?

I believe Ford and potentially other auto makers have also used tracers for any engines which use a belt submerged in oil because supposedly, there is an oil spec that is supposed to help preserve belts that are submerged in oil. Exactly what that tracer is? I am unsure.

 

[TiGeo]

It has been stated on the Silverado/Sierra truck forums by GM Techs in certain instances when a motor replacement is needed-GM will request a UOA. What are they looking for? Who knows.....

My son is a GMC tech - I'll ask him about all of this.

 

[DuckRyder]

And we’ve been down this road just as repeatedly. You’re disingenuous if you really don’t understand why that language is in the manual. It mirrors what an EPA letter states is required of the automaker as part of their CAFE award.

And examples of those letters have been posted here as well.

Go into it fully informed.

You’re disingenuous if you think it matters why the manual says what it says.

We don’t really disagree that much I just think you’re cavalier with your advice and I don’t want someone to find out the hard way just how utterly wrong you are in the real world. You might be technically right, but that won’t pay the lawyer bill.

 

[TiGeo]

You’re disingenuous if you think it matters why the manual says what it says.

We don’t really disagree that much I just think you’re cavalier with your advice and I don’t want someone to find out the hard way just how utterly wrong you are in the real world. You might be technically right, but that won’t pay the lawyer bill.

That's really the crux of it...all of this is meaningless for the most part to a dealer that is the gatekeeper for warranty coverage - yes, you can go to arbitration, yes you can push it up to the manufacturer but in the end, it's an easier and nearly zero risk affair to simply follow your manual for OCI and oil type/grade/etc. It's like the risk assessment matrix I posted above - very unlikely/low-to-moderate for an overall low risk...but that isn't zero and folks should understand that. The issue really is one of time/hassle in the worst case and that's not a zero cost. Some folks are ok with it (I am!) but many are not and not in a financial position to push the "screw around and find out" graph to far up-axis.

 

[The Critic]

You’re disingenuous if you think it matters why the manual says what it says.

We don’t really disagree that much I just think you’re cavalier with your advice and I don’t want someone to find out the hard way just how utterly wrong you are in the real world. You might be technically right, but that won’t pay the lawyer bill.

He has his interpretation (opinion) and feels that it is his destiny to inform everyone that it is the only valid perspective.