Can 0w20 handle high RPMs

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by dblshock
I realize W20 oils have advanced since I first used them with my new '03 Accord and yes they probably do work in select circumstances but by far and away most using it experience oil consumption after 50k...if your ok with that be my guest it's your equipment...my advice is upgrade right off the bat and avoid the 50k of wear before you then conclude to upgrade.


As I said, I'm going to do a screening/baseline UOA at 10k miles anyway. I will suspend making a conclusion regarding whether there is or is not wear until then. Respectfully, you're just assuming it will happen. Can you show me a provable example (really, not internet sarcasm, if it's there, I want to see it! And I'll judge it fairly)?

And again, even if there is some added wear (which we can't just assume), the last twenty years of real world experience has clearly established that 20wt engines are lasting for as long as the cars containing them remain usable on the road. That's simply undeniable at this point, here in 2019.

I'm not declaring with certainty (as if I could know) that 20wt oils are the same, better or worse than the 30wts as far as wear is concerned. As an example, consider hypothetically that Castrol's right that most engine wear occurs during the first ~20 minutes of engine operation (see their Magnatec advertising blah-blah...). Assuming that's true, then the 20wt will be flowing "better" (compared to a 30) throughout the entire warm-up time, until it reaches full temp. Which is "better" here? And on and on.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by dblshock
I realize W20 oils have advanced since I first used them with my new '03 Accord and yes they probably do work in select circumstances but by far and away most using it experience oil consumption after 50k...if your ok with that be my guest it's your equipment...my advice is upgrade right off the bat and avoid the 50k of wear before you then conclude to upgrade.


As I said, I'm going to do a screening/baseline UOA at 10k miles anyway. I will suspend making a conclusion regarding whether there is or is not wear until then. Respectfully, you're just assuming it will happen. Can you show me a provable example (really, not internet sarcasm, if it's there, I want to see it! And I'll judge it fairly)?

And again, even if there is some added wear (which we can't just assume), the last twenty years of real world experience has clearly established that 20wt engines are lasting for as long as the cars containing them remain usable on the road. That's simply undeniable at this point, here in 2019.

I'm not declaring with certainty (as if I could know) that 20wt oils are the same, better or worse than the 30wts as far as wear is concerned. As an example, consider hypothetically that Castrol's right that most engine wear occurs during the first ~20 minutes of engine operation (see their Magnatec advertising blah-blah...). Assuming that's true, then the 20wt will be flowing "better" (compared to a 30) throughout the entire warm-up time, until it reaches full temp. Which is "better" here? And on and on.





A UOA will determine the serviceability of the oil and that's it. Trying to extrapolate evidence of wear between oils is not something that can be accomplished with one. Even if the wear metals increase we are talking parts per million and not something that can be traced directly to the oil.

It's a thin argument and yes that's a pun.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by PimTac


A UOA will determine the serviceability of the oil and that's it. Trying to extrapolate evidence of wear between oils is not something that can be accomplished with one. Even if the wear metals increase we are talking parts per million and not something that can be traced directly to the oil.

It's a thin argument and yes that's a pun.


Oh yes, I'm aware that UOA is limited in this regard (at least the simple affordable ones most of us get). Beyond the oil's ability to hold up, I'll be looking for only the most obvious hints that something's off as to the engine. The wear metals won't be the focus. I order particle counts to see if there's something "floating" around there that isn't showing up specifically in the "wear" metals. Generally, your point is well taken.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by PimTac


A UOA will determine the serviceability of the oil and that's it. Trying to extrapolate evidence of wear between oils is not something that can be accomplished with one. Even if the wear metals increase we are talking parts per million and not something that can be traced directly to the oil.

It's a thin argument and yes that's a pun.


Oh yes, I'm aware that UOA is limited in this regard (at least the simple affordable ones most of us get). Beyond the oil's ability to hold up, I'll be looking for only the most obvious hints that something's off as to the engine. The wear metals won't be the focus. I order particle counts to see if there's something "floating" around there that isn't showing up specifically in the "wear" metals. Generally, your point is well taken.




I see. Excellent discussion and I thank you for that.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by dblshock
I realize W20 oils have advanced since I first used them with my new '03 Accord and yes they probably do work in select circumstances but by far and away most using it experience oil consumption after 50k...if your ok with that be my guest it's your equipment...my advice is upgrade right off the bat and avoid the 50k of wear before you then conclude to upgrade.



Which circumstances will a 0W20 not work? The vast majority of American's do not use their vehicals in this manner.

 

[ka9mnx]

I'm not a W20 guy and never will be. BUT. My daughter has a 2010 Fusion that she does oil changes when the OLM tells her to (20k miles). Nothing but M1 0/5w-20. Car runs and sounds great with excellent MPG. 120+k on the clock.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Gokhan
OK, doing an actual calculation, assuming the A_Harman index is temperature-independent:

M1 0W-20 HTHSV150 = 2.70 cP
M1 0W-20 HTHSV150 = 1.57 cP

M1 5W-30 HTHSV150 = 3.10 cP
M1 5W-30 HTHSV200 = 1.75 cP

So, the HTHSV ratio between 5W-30 and 0W-20 decreases from about 1.15 to 1.11 when the temperature increases from 150 C to 200 C.

Considering that the oil almost thinned by half, does 11% make much difference though? This doesn't even take into account permanent shear. 5W-30 will have more permanent shear than 0W-20. So, it could be almost no difference after including the permanent shear.

I don't think there is whole a lot of difference between a 0W-20 and a 5W-30. If you're really worried about high RPMs, use a 15W-40, 5W-50, 20W-50, or such.
200C? What passenger car engine is going to see that type of temps? One is not long for this world.

The question asked in this thread is bearing temperatures in high-RPM racing. It's not oil-sump temperatures or normal driving.

 

[dave1251]

Your funny. 0W20 would not be used in a race engine other than qualifying.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Your funny. 0W20 would not be used in a race engine other than qualifying.


Thought I read that NASCARs use 20 weight these days. The key is using crazy effective oil coolers so the oil doesnt thin out too much. Also realize that MOFT increases with RPM, so a race engine revving near redline all day long could run 20 weight if the oil is kept cool enough.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Your funny. 0W20 would not be used in a race engine other than qualifying.


Pro stock is drag racing. They also make that oil in 0w5 and 0w10.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Thought I read that NASCARs use 20 weight these days. The key is using crazy effective oil coolers so the oil doesnt thin out too much. Also realize that MOFT increases with RPM, so a race engine revving near redline all day long could run 20 weight if the oil is kept cool enough.

My assessment on adequate MOFT in the use of thin oils (xW16/20) is achieved 'mainly' through inclusion of 'solid' lubricants additives in Moly/Boron/Titanium or its combination, granted high surface velocity is a bonus albeit with consequential changes in oil temperatures/viscosities.
I'd no luck in seeing a 0W20 without a single trace of Moly/Boron/Titanium.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Thought I read that NASCARs use 20 weight these days. The key is using crazy effective oil coolers so the oil doesnt thin out too much. Also realize that MOFT increases with RPM, so a race engine revving near redline all day long could run 20 weight if the oil is kept cool enough.

My assessment on adequate MOFT in the use of thin oils (xW16/20) is achieved 'mainly' through inclusion of 'solid' lubricants additives in Moly/Boron/Titanium or its combination, granted high surface velocity is a bonus albeit with consequential changes in oil temperatures/viscosities.
I'd no luck in seeing a 0W20 without a single trace of Moly/Boron/Titanium.


Those are anti-wear additives that help to reduce wear when the MOFT fails to keep metal-to-metal contact from happening. They don't actualky increase MOFT.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by dave1251
Your funny. 0W20 would not be used in a race engine other than qualifying.


Pro stock is drag racing. They also make that oil in 0w5 and 0w10.


And yet nothing to do with normal driving how often are those engines torn down?

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by dave1251
Your funny. 0W20 would not be used in a race engine other than qualifying.


Pro stock is drag racing. They also make that oil in 0w5 and 0w10.


And yet nothing to do with normal driving how often are those engines torn down?



Your argument was that nobody who races uses those oils. Your question now is completely different.

 

[dave1251]

No. Read the entire thread. A poster attempting to justify the HTHS of a 0W20 is nearly as high as a 5W30 at 200C thus will protect nearly as well. What passenger car operates for minutes with oil tempatures at this high tempature? I would ask which one operates at hours with this elevated temp but it would fail in short order.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Your statement was that race engines would not use 20 weight except for qualifying. But they do use 20 weight for racing (not just qualifying), and can because of crazy effective oil coolers to keep the oil from thinning to a dangerous level, or in drag cars because they run for only 5~6 seconds down the strip.

 

[FlyPenFly]

You can also change the oil after each race and not have to worry about long term oxidation or fuel dilution over a standard OCI.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
The question asked in this thread is bearing temperatures in high-RPM racing. It's not oil-sump temperatures or normal driving.

I think ZeeOSix or Shannow has a chart that shows the bearing temperature as a function of RPM.

 

[ka9mnx]

When W20 first came out racers were using it for qualification and then changing the oil for the race. Race officials changed the rules making it so racers had to race on the same oil they qualified with.

 

[Hootbro]

In Australia, the 2GR-FKS (3.5L) Toyota engine in the Highland/Kluger allows anywhere from 0W-20 to 15W-40 so long as outside temp considerations are taken in. The 0W-20 and 5W-20 only in the USA market is obviously a CAFE only consideration and not a sole engineering one.